Transcript for S1E10

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:00] No, don't don't apologize. I think we're pausing to think and also like give space to each other to answer. So don't worry about the pauses. They're also good for editing.

All [00:00:14] (Laughing)

Katie Giritlian [00:00:15] I wish someone told me at a younger age and I mean just in general, don't worry about the pauses, I'd be like, Wow.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:20] Oh, yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:00:25] Hello, everyone. My name is Pat McMahon and you're listening to another episode of Converge Collaboratives podcast called Bring Your Full Self.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:34] Hi, everyone. I'm Amy Yoshitsu. Thanks, Pat, for that introduction to where we are today. This is the last episode of our season, our first season. If you've been following along, thanks so much. We've love sharing the thoughts and values of our members. Today we have a very special episode, another roundtable episode, which features our intern, Ryan Park. He is a college senior studying computer science, and it's been a treat to get to know him. This episode came about because in our meetings when we talk about tasks and work, Ryan has also been such a wonderful question asker and interlocutor. His questions have helped us break down so many of the foundational, pivotal decisions and processes that many of us go through as we move from young adulthood into navigating careers and inevitably growing in our responsibilities.

Pat McMahon [00:01:19] I thought this conversation that we had with Ryan was really, really special. I, as is the case with a lot of the members of Converge, Amy you were kind of the person that the new Ryan the best and so we were able to welcome him into this space of conversation in which he was able to ask some general questions, like you said, about kind of moving through young adulthood, navigating careers. But I also thought some of his questions around things like how do you go out and make friends aligned with your interests? You know, what, what do you guys see as, you know, how have you found yourselves? Things that are not questions that you get asked very frequently and very directly. I thought that the perspective that Ryan brought in was really fantastic and allowed us to sort of investigate some of those those questions within ourselves.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:02:11] I totally agree. And I'm so excited that we get to share this with people. I really appreciate that you just called out the directness. And I think that's one thing that's really special about this conversation is that we are very directly talking about things that are often very implicitly thought about or communicated around. And it really leads to my personal interest in this conversation is that this brings us back to foundational thinking and about narratives when we were younger. And unpacking what those who are older, what those people often said to us and how it made us feel and how it may or may not have applied to us. In my creative practice, I'm personally very interested in the concept of infrastructure, and that includes the foundations of why we view things as we do and why we make early decisions and how those influence our lives later on. You know, that's not to say that we can too don't change intentionally and unintentionally. But I know for me, the people that I saw as wise authority figures when I was younger, those really affected my choices. And I like the idea of unpacking those ideas together and being open about them instead of like just wondering about it silently to yourself. And I really believe in fluidity and nuance. So there's a balance between the practicality of not reinventing the wheel and also allowing space for imagining and experimentation with different methods and paths. That's what we're all about here at Converge. And that boils down to for me to take everything with a grain of salt. So listeners definitely, you know, we're all just coming from where we are in the moment that we're in them. So I just want to put that out there, and I like the idea that we recorded that if we could possibly record a podcast in ten years and see what our thoughts about these same questions would be like, I think we're all going to change and grow and have new insights. So I know that was kind of a little disclaimer, but I just want to say none of this is gospel. This is just like our ideas in the moment.

Pat McMahon [00:04:00] Oh, I love that disclaimer so much. I think that that that thought and that concept of nothing being gospel really just kind of sharing with Ryan the things that individually worked for us and also the reassurance that we were able to provide as these, you know, I'm using air quotes, but wise older figures with slightly more life experience that we were able to share, hey, this is just what works for me. And it's also, I think, a really good reminder to the fact that with a lot of Ryan's questions from the perspective of, you know, he's about ten years younger than I am from that perspective, I'm so proud of of him in terms of the way that he has those questions at the ready. Because, you know, when you look at kind of growth over the span of ten years or even shorter time increments, it's really I think it's impressive when you're able to acknowledge the growth, acknowledge the things that you didn't know. And that's one thing that stands out to me about this brilliant conversation. As is always the case, I learned so much from all of the other people we're in community and conversation with here in Converge. I know that as I've expressed in different kind of opportunities, both on this podcast and in our internal conversations. In speaking with you all, I gain language for concepts and feelings that I may have had, but that I wasn't able to fully articulate. I feel that I've learned so much from you. Amy and Katie Giritlian, one of the other voices you'll hear on this podcast in terms of how to express and articulate all of the things that were brought up through Ryan's really, really thoughtful questions. So without further ado, I'll introduce our conversation, and the voices that you'll hear today are myself, Pat McMahon, Amy Yoshitsu, Ryan Park and Katie Giritlian. Hope you enjoy.

Katie Giritlian [00:06:05] I love your question so much, so I'm feeling energized by your questions. How are you doing?

Ryan Park [00:06:11] I'm good, thank you. Glad to hear that. Hopefully. Like I don't know. Hopefully they're not too general questions.

Pat McMahon [00:06:23] I actually I feel like there like a good appropriate amount of general. You know, like they're not questions that I asked when I was your age. And I think they're like that. You're asking them, you know, I think they're questions that like we don't straight up ask other people very often. And I think that's awesome.

Ryan Park [00:06:41] Yeah. Thanks for being so open with it. Like, I know a lot of people are really hesitant to answer these kinds of things, but.

Pat McMahon [00:06:48] I feel like it's I feel like it's definitely something that gets easier with age, you know. So and I feel like that's one thing that we can offer to these questions, kind of all three of us.

Ryan Park [00:07:05] Cool thank you. You know, I appreciate that. So I guess, Katie, I haven't met you, but I guess a little bit of myself like I'm in my last quarter of the computer science degree. So I'm really just trying to figure out like what I want to do and like how I want to go about it. So that's kind of how we got across these questions.

Katie Giritlian [00:07:30] Yeah. I, hearing all of that, I think they're such a beautiful questions. And to hear that context and like where they're arriving from makes a lot of sense. And I also would also love about them is that they're questions that like. As someone that is maybe beyond that chapter, I am still grappling with these so, so much. And I've been like actually like struggling with some things. And your questions were such a grounding reminder of like the core seeds of, of these things that are just so important to keep checking in about at each stage of growing. So that context is so lovely to hear and also so excited to see how all of our contexts together create these questions.

Ryan Park [00:08:19] Cool. Thank you. I guess, like of of that then, like. What does it mean to you guys to find yourself at like a younger age? Like what does it mean, to like really like know a lot about yourself? I guess it's like directed toward anyone. Sorry it's kind of a loaded question, I guess.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:08:45] Don't don't Apologize. I think we're pausing to think and also, like give space to each other to answer. So don't worry about the pauses. They're all good for editing.

Katie Giritlian [00:09:00] I wish someone told me at a younger age, just in general. Don't worry about the pauses. I'd be like, Wow.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:09:05] Oh, yeah. I guess I have a question. Like, what does it mean to know yourself when you're young? Or like, what do you feel like, other people your age know themselves and you don't? Or like, I'd like to learn more about where that question is coming from for you.

Ryan Park [00:09:25] Like, I don't know, you always just hear it. It's like you should find yourself when you're younger, you know, like, okay, what is that like mean? Like, I don't know. How can you, like, specify and then just, like, find yourself, I was like ok. Sure.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:09:42] Well, I have some thoughts, but I can let other people answer first.

Pat McMahon [00:09:46] No, Amy have at it.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:09:48] Okay. Yeah, well I thought the the response to that. I don't I'm not sure if I can remember someone saying that to me, but what that brings up for me is that me imagining people who are older, who didn't find their passion or their interests when they were young and kind of regretting that maybe when they're older. I think we've talked about this before, you and me, Ryan, about like at some point, one may get into a situation where they have a lot of bills, essentially, they have a lot of responsibilities and it's harder to pursue something you really love if you have, you know, financial responsibilities that require 24 hour attendance. So that's what I kind of imagine when people say that. So I know for you you do love what you're studying. And so that's already a really great thing. And there's like a pretty clear in some ways future for what you're studying. Like, I think some people love English, but then like the world we live in doesn't allow for people to spend their whole lives digging into what it means to be an English literature person. Like that's not really an option in our world. So it's good that, you know, and I think hopefully for you you'll find a path towards continuing to love what you do. But that's what I that's what it meant to me. When you asked that.

Ryan Park [00:11:07] That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I don't know. It just like whenever someone said that to me it just sounded so vague. So yeah, I just thank you for that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:11:17] What do other people think?

Katie Giritlian [00:11:20] I've been thinking a lot about. I think this is a nice texture to add to Amy's response. Like, I've been thinking about the practice of collecting our instincts. So like, for example, I am an artist and a teacher. Like, I'm all over, like I interdisciplinary and I'm struggling in like aligning what I love with something that is financially sustainable a la Amy's response exactly. And but as I'm navigating that, I keep coming back to, well, what do I know makes me happy? And I don't I don't have an answer or a one liner. But I do know that I'm committed to practicing and following my instincts. So, like, oh, like this I keep going towards this photography history. I keep going towards making books as a way to share ideas with people. I keep going towards making sure I'm the transcriber at meetings. Like there's these instincts that keep happening and just practicing presence and listening to that and being committed to remembering that. And over time those pieces start to connect into our practices. And I think one more thing I'll add to that is like this distinction between habits and practices I've been thinking a lot about, like in that in this mindful practice of like listening to how I am in spaces, thinking about what are the habits, what are the ways I've been reacting to things and what what of those do I want to let go of and what do those do I want to keep nurturing into intentional practices for how I show up in different spaces. I know that might sound a little vague too just like a way of a way of my brain kind of organizes it.

Ryan Park [00:12:59] No thank you that was good, that was really well put, actually.

Pat McMahon [00:13:03] Yeah, I love that response. Katie That was beautiful. I hear a little bit of I mean, I hear some things in both Amy and Katie's responses that I definitely resonate with. And I also recognize like. I certainly didn't have a good understanding of myself when I was younger, you know what I mean? That's definitely something that came with age and with like a slow kind of in my case, like an unintentional move towards things that I was more passionate about. You know, I was like, while I was working a job that I didn't like, it was really hard for me to feel like that was the self I was supposed to move towards. And then I made conscious decisions to to leave that job, to honestly like working in this space with this group of people was like a pretty huge piece to kind of getting to that point of. Maybe not fully discovering myself. I still am working on figuring out who I am and what I want to continue to do. But like. I feel in this year, I've felt like more of myself than I ever have before, which I think took like a lot of like slow work. So I think if you don't if you don't feel like you're there right at this moment, that's to be expected. You know, it's like there's so much, so much fun exploring that you get to do and figuring out the things that make you feel like yourself, make you feel maybe further away from that, you know, like it's trial and error. And I think that's, in my experience, been kind of the way that I found myself where I am now.

Ryan Park [00:14:52] Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Then I guess some of that, then, like, after you guys, like, have found yourself like we would. What would you say? Like, makes you guys, like, most happiest? Like. Yeah, I know. It's general but like, if you're ever, like, down or something. Like, what do you guys always do to, like, like, re-coop and make yourself a little more happy.

Pat McMahon [00:15:18] I definitely turn to music for, you know, just like something to listen to to swing me out of a rut. Something to pull me deeper into a rut, if that's the thing that I need at the moment, you know? And yeah, and also kind of along the lines of like recognizing habits, like Katie was talking about. One thing that I recognize is a good habit for me is when I'm like listening to new music. Finding new music. Kind of staying open to a shuffle of new music. It's just I think it's a good practice for me in terms of curiosity for like looking for new stuff. It can, like, totally change a direction. If I'm like really into, there was a period last year where I got really into like dance music and like that was the first time in my life that I'd gotten really into dance music. And it kind of, it gave me a little bit of propulsion, which was like pretty nice, you know, in like a, in a very activating kind of way. So music has always sort of held that if I, if I don't know what else to be doing, music is a good place to like, get the ball rolling for me.  

Ryan Park [00:16:35] Nice. Yeah, I find myself kind of coming back to music to them, not gonna lie, yeah, it's just. Yeah, just something always relaxing.

Katie Giritlian [00:16:47] I think to build on that too is like it is a nice duet with that is I think about reading a lot. Like I always say from from teachers and from friends there is this practice of like if you if you're stuck writing, it means you need to read more. And like, I just think about the, like, ecology of language and like how it's so contagious and, and as someone that really struggles with verbalizing. I like, I am like, okay, like I, if I'm struggling right now, it just means I need to like, just, just put myself into the ecology of language with others and just lean into that and that really that brings so much happiness because it's like reminding of just larger communities that we're all a part of. But I feel like reading and listening. Reading and music feels like. Feels related so much.

Katie Giritlian [00:17:39] Oh, yeah, Ryan. Did you want to respond? Sorry.

Ryan Park [00:17:41] No, go ahead.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:17:44] Building on what they said and what Katie said originally. For me when I was younger, music was like a big source of stress relief for me. And I think now for me, it is more following my intuition about what I want to do in the moment. I think that's like a big part of how I like, like, oh, this. I try it like a big part of Converge and like trying to build my life is being in a place where I can choose what task I'm doing in this moment, too, that I'm most productive and most able to focus as opposed to being forced into like, I have to finish this in in an hour because that's the nature of the work that I'm doing. So I just want I've intentionally tried to build my life like that. And I also want to go back to like your original question and how I don't know if like class and race played a role in the messaging that you were getting or like I know that also plays a large role in just like that idea of finding yourself because not everyone has the privilege of doing that throughout their entire life or when they're young and like, wondering if maybe people who are giving you that message that you're perceiving it from are people who didn't have that privilege when they were younger and tried to give you permission to do that now that you're young and that maybe you have the opportunity to.

Ryan Park [00:19:05] No, yeah it was more or less just like some of my friends. Like my older friends that were going into industry and they're like yeah. It's like it's like a word of advice. Try to find yourself early on, like what you want to do and stuff. So I was like, okay, I'll try. But I don't know. At the time it didn't really make sense, but.

Pat McMahon [00:19:25] Yeah. I think that what I'm hearing in that, as you said, like in industry, you know, finding out what you want to do, I definitely feel like, societally, a huge pressure to like know that the thing you either want to study in school or and or career you want to pursue is like. It's a big piece of I guess what's expected of us when we're young, you know, like the the early assumption of like knowing what you want to study in school, being like a huge pressure point for an 18 year old to try and figure out. I talk about that a lot with people around my age, you know, late twenties, early thirties, about how. You know, you're kind of told to pick something and that might not be the thing that you want to continue doing for the rest of your life or being your passion or anything like that. I think the way that, you know, to tie it back to your question, Ryan, about like finding yourself and then what is happiness then look like? I think like a huge piece for me of like arriving at this place where I am now and feeling very happy and content in my life is, is understanding that like what I do professionally is not like the the end all be all of my. I don't know, life or humanity or. It's taking less of my life or putting less of my life into the work that I do. And like Amy said, kind of crafting my life around the things that I'm interested in doing. So, you know, I've really been very lucky in the last year or so since I left that job that other things have fallen into place as I kind of put less of myself into like I am my job or I am, you know, trying to find meaning or purpose in the job that I was in instead of kind of working the other way around. I don't know.

Ryan Park [00:21:35] No. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because. I like you brought up like that your professional life is not your end all be all thing. So, like, because I was going to ask, like, at what point do you have to like, balance your passion and like finances? Because like sometimes pursuing I feel like pursuing passion isn't like always like financially responsible all the time. But like what you guys just take on balancing the two.

Pat McMahon [00:22:07] I have lots of thoughts, but I. I would love to hear Amy and Katie from your perspective as well.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:22:17] You can go first if you want.

Pat McMahon [00:22:20] Yeah. I mean, I feel like in my life those things have been a little bit it's like a zero sum situation for me. Where the more that I've pursued, the things that I'm interested in, passionate about, the less financially sound I've been. But I also built for myself enough of a reserve of financial stability at a job that I wasn't fulfilled by to go off and explore what would fulfill me. So I in my personal experience, it was very much like I was on this track. I realized this track was not for me, but I recognized the financial benefit of it and I was eventually able to get off of that track and explore what would be more fulfilling in my life and how I wanted to carve out for myself both a world that I can work and pursue things that don't make me money but make me happy.

Ryan Park [00:23:26] I know. That's awesome because. Coming out of college. Or like nearing the end of my college career, just. Just, like, a bit worried on like. Whether to just focus on getting the higher paying job or focus on something more interesting.

Katie Giritlian [00:23:45] Yeah, I really I really struggle with this one and I'm like deep in it right now actually. As someone that's done has chosen the positions for them, that's my passion. And then went to grad school and then continued that. Finding jobs that aligned with my passion. I I'm reckoning now with with what that means financially, which is less sustainability. And that's what I'm that's I'm deeply like negotiating every now and I'm making all these charts right now. I'm trying to figure it out. And and one thing I will say. There's a chart that I've been drawing for myself every day that I find really grounding. It kind of both bridges the finding yourself and this balance question a little bit maybe it's like a tool. It's a quadrant. The x axis goes from not urgent to urgent and the y axis goes from not from bottom to up, not interested to interested. And I place all my tasks and things that I want to do and commitments and practices on it for the week. And I see where things are aligned and I'm like, okay, what is what is urgent in terms of. Financial responsibility. What is urgent in terms of my emotional well-being, what is urgent and da da da da and through this quadrant, I specialize all the things that are present in that current week and am able to discern or get closer to discerning what my priorities are, which is helping me in turn come back to that question of balance, if that makes any sense. Yes. Because it can get so. It's such a hard question. And so I find like visuals like that and using the material of our every week, of our every day as a way to ground myself in reflecting. Towards that question. Does that make any sense?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:25:48] No, no. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Thank you.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:25:52] Yeah, that's amazing. We should do that.

Ryan Park [00:25:55] We really should.

Katie Giritlian [00:25:57] I do it with my students it's so helpful. I'm like I do with them. I'm like, I need this.

Pat McMahon [00:26:04] That's fantastic. Yeah, I'm definitely I'm steal that.

Ryan Park [00:26:09] Yeah. No, like. I'm actually going to steal that because like sometimes it's hard for me to prioritize certain tasks over like what needs to be done, but like versus like what I really want to do at the time. So I just get carried away on like what things I really want to do versus like my deadlines coming up. So I'm definitely gonna steal that.

Katie Giritlian [00:26:33] And I was working on it the other day and I could see it would be hard to say that's a visual, but I could see how the top left quadrant, usually all the things that need protecting and then like the top right are usually like all the things that are like the bottom right little things that like we need, we need to be, we need like external motivation to get it done in the first place because like you just start to see the patterns and that's really really helpful.

Pat McMahon [00:26:58] Katie. I also really like the way you describe the different types of urgency. So there's like a financial urgency, which is, you know, an urgency that is always present, but then like an urgency for your taking care of your emotional urgency, things that are going to make you feel relief or, you know, just anything outside of what we might think is the default urgency, kind of, you know, cost of living being a high one. I love the urgency for other things too.

Katie Giritlian [00:27:31] Yeah. It takes so much for me at least, work to remember that. Yeah.

Ryan Park [00:27:43] I guess on that then like are you guys like pretty happy with the path guys have chosen then? Or would you change something?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:59] Something that's in one's individual control or someone had a magic wand to change society, which to kind of change.

Ryan Park [00:28:05] Individual control.

Pat McMahon [00:28:11] For me, there's always things I would do differently. There's if I had the the knowledge that I sit here with right now at 31, when I was 23, 24, I would have made better decisions. I mean, you can take that back even further. You know, like you could always be looking at the decisions that you're making with the hindsight that you have and say. There's a better path. I could have figured out. I could have started exploring my passion sooner. You know, just as one example, I. I'd been talking about quitting my job at a marketing agency for long enough that I would go years without seeing friends. And they would ask me if I was still doing that job that I was complaining about all those years ago. So like, yeah, if I had the chance, maybe I'd go back and I'd quit that job sooner and I'd, you know, explore a little bit more. But I think for me, it happened at the right time. So I don't. I try not to go back and look at things as, Oh, I made the wrong choice. But more like I said earlier, is like trial and error. I mean, I am where I am now because I stayed on the wrong path for a while and really had to had to get so far into something I wasn't really thrilled about that I that it was unavoidable, you know. So I don't know. That's my take on it. I try really hard not to look back with too much like choice by choice road not road not taken. Road not traveled. Robert Frost. But yeah, I think that there's a yeah, that's sort of how I look at it. Does that make sense?

Ryan Park [00:29:55] No, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I appreciate like you're like. Your thoughts or not thoughts, but like your your take on like not looking back. Like you kind of just are where you are. Like. Like. I definitely can learn from that because even now I can look back and I probably could have done this instead. Maybe something else would have happened, but maybe it's not for the best.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:30:32] I think.

Pat McMahon [00:30:34] Oh, sorry. Amy, you go.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:30:35] No, go ahead.

Pat McMahon [00:30:36] But I think there's. There's value that comes probably from from looking back and knowing. You know, reflecting back, I think is really important. I don't think. I don't think the way that I operate is not thinking about decisions I've made in the past, but not not dwelling on having made the wrong ones. You know, I think looking back and in trying to figure out what I wasn't considering in the past and what I was considering, you know, so, like to look at maybe what my. What my sources of evaluation were when I was younger. Financial security was much more readily in my forefront because I didn't have that. And so now that I've after a time where I was able to build that a little bit for myself. Then I realized, okay, I have this financial stability, but what I'm lacking is actually fulfillment and happiness and interest in what I'm doing. So I really do think that it's like it's only because I could look back with a little bit more knowledge that I was able to then change the decisions I was making looking forward. Does that kind of distinction make sense? I guess between like. Yeah, not looking back and like. Yeah.

Ryan Park [00:31:58] Yeah. No, definitely. Then I guess like if you were to look back, it was like, I'm coming out of college and I know I've asked Amy and Patrick this. But, like, do you guys have like any like. General advice for coming into the work field.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:32:25] I think for me it kind of depends on what field you will be in and the position that you will be in. And I think we've kind of like that's how I see it. Like people who are coming out of college, depending on what they studied and like the position they're in, they're always going to be like at the beginning in some ways, but the beginning can be more or less privileged, depending on what you studied and who you are and all those things. So. I guess like being mindful of that. I guess like, like in terms of like your social circle, being mindful that, you know, we've talked about that and. Yeah. Be mindful that like, I guess just I came from a family with a very fixed idea about many things and one of them being about like the hierarchy that is expected in the job setting. And I think that that's often it's like it is there, but I think there are more there are more like a larger spectrum of what is possible now in my view, from when I started working more than ten years ago, it doesn't. It doesn't always have to be as authoritarian in every situation. That's just what I was programed to assume and like accept. But I think everyone's coming at it from a different perspective too, depending on like what you see the adults in your life are doing, how they're making money and what the messages you received when you're preparing to go into a job. So I think it's like really, I don't know. For me, I was just like I just came in being like, well, 100% authoritarianism is what I expect and, like, what I have to accept. So.

Ryan Park [00:34:08] Then like on that, what made you become more open minded about these things?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:34:17] In my experience, it was seeing that that other people didn't necessarily follow that assumption. And some people did. Some people did not follow this assumption and not go well, but other people do not follow that assumption. And it went fine for them. And that helped me see how gender, race and class played a big role in things. And also seeing that like just like being, I think aware of what also my peers were doing and the types of experiences they were having, like listening to that, figuring that out. Like trying to transition and navigate towards a, a space where I felt like my skills could be more valued and my autonomy could be more valued. Just like, it's like incremental, like, like slow work, kind of. I remember something that Patrick said earlier as conversation is like a slow progression towards that, I think like drifting towards that and for me experimenting, seeing how far I could stretch something, etc.. And thats like kind of vague.

Ryan Park [00:35:22] No, no, that was perfect. Thank you.

Katie Giritlian [00:35:26] I also too like on the note of slow work and again to this practice of just like. Close listening to Instincts and habits and shifts that might be happening incrementally. Like at the beginning of any job or of a new chapter there's so much learning, and I feel like at that time for me I was conflating excitement and fear. And so I would, I would there's so much excitement, like it's learning so many things or so many processes. And I would quickly all of a sudden get scared, understandably so. And I didn't know how to work through and discern fear versus excitement. And so then I would start to operate on that fear and not question certain assumptions about hierarchy and things. And so like for example, I was working at like my first full time job. I, the hierarchy wasn't totally explained, but I like, I also wasn't questioning it that much and I was operating on fear, which would magnify the pressure that was there so much and be so hard on myself and be working, like that would lead into poor boundaries. And we're working so many hours and also all these like gender class race dynamics that I was not wondering about because again, I was just operating so much on fear. And so I think just like taking that time to as much as is possible to, to like get to like pay attention, to reflect, to incrementally question and see the dynamics and if you're noticing yourself becoming really stressed, just like pausing and saying, okay, where's this coming from? Is this for me? Is this from external power source? Like, where? Where is this? What is that? Where is this coming from? And give yourself that grace to like slowly collect those pieces and put them together.

Ryan Park [00:37:36] Yeah no. Thank you. That was like, really nicely put, like. I think I can you know, I can take from that just by taking a step back. I definitely learned from that one.

Pat McMahon [00:37:55] Katie. I'm always so appreciative of we've had this moment so many times I feel like you and I, but like recognizing that we we kind of have had similar experiences in the past. Like hearing you say that you were operating from a place of fear at your first job is like that's an articulation of something I've never really been able to identify, but that's absolutely what was going on for me. And the fact that it led to then poor boundaries and working like so much to try and like. Do right by the people who are asking me these tasks. You know, I was just like, well, I don't want my boss to be disappointed. I certainly don't want to do something wrong. So I'll overexert and not really have the language or the tools to say. I'd like to clearly set expectations for for, you know, boundaries or things like that, you know. You're so thoughtful and so mindful in the way that you articulate it now. And it's it resonates really deeply with what I felt when I was like 23 and was like, Gosh, I don't know if I'm doing anything right. And I'm a little too afraid to ask because at this point it's been like an hour of trying to figure out if I'm doing the thing right, I should just ask right away, and then that problem compounds itself. So I think the other the other huge advice I would give is just ask questions. You know, if you're confused, it's not in any way it's not due to any fault of your own. You know, confusion is like an okay thing. And if what you've been instructed doesn't make sense, like, I'm sure there's another way for the person that is giving you that task to describe it in a way that's easy for them that makes more clear for you. So yeah, just recognizing those kinds of things like I don't know, I wasn't very good at that when I was when I was starting out in the workforce for sure.

Ryan Park [00:40:03] Okay. No, that's. That's really great to hear because like. Even now, I struggle to ask questions, even though, like, I definitely don't know the answer. Like, like searching online is not really helping me either.

Pat McMahon [00:40:15] Yeah totally.

Ryan Park [00:40:18] I can definitely feel ok to ask questions, but. It's. I don't know even now, it's just tough. It's just like I don't know whether like too scared or too Like worried what like the person will say back.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:40:42] I think that's like a fair fear because I do think sometimes I think that I really emphasize what Pat said, like ask questions. But if it still doesn't make sense to you, I really hope and encourage you not to internalize that that's your fault. Like I have been a lot of questions where like a lot of situations where asking questions actually did not go well and it did make me feel like dumb or like that it was my fault. But often it's. It's. Human communication's very complex. Like, just like start there that it's not. Just because another person may have more authority. Even the fact that they cannot express their need or question clearly is not your fault. So I just like want to emphasize that. And also that kind of dovetails like also when you ask like more about moving towards not accepting authority in that way is seeing people who are in authority clearly also being human and not being able to do everything perfectly. And I think as you have more experiences, maybe have I had more experiences like that again and again, I was like, Oh, I can do this. Which gave me more confidence to try other things and expand my asks and like my attempts at things.

Ryan Park [00:41:55] Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense too, but. Did it just like take time to like eventually get around to the point where you're like, okay, I'll just ask this anyways.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:09] Yeah.

Ryan Park [00:42:10] Okay.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:10] Yep. I mean it takes time to get to know people.  

Katie Giritlian [00:42:18] And it's still taking time. I still sweat so much when I ask a question. I think about fear so and power so much. Cause I am still. And I've learned so much. Learning happens, growing happens. But I am. It's such a process because as Amy said, so well, it's communication is so complex and you throw power and race and class and it's just like, ahh, there's so many vectors. And something to that I am grappling with is like how? I don't know. I wished I had also thought more about. When I was younger, like not to let other parties or people's reactionary discomfort be an authority or like appeal to it. So I what I mean by that is like. Like when I yeah, it takes a long time and it's hard and it's tricky. And knowing your own boundaries is crucial for this. But like when I would ask questions at my first job and there was a power dynamic and gender dynamic and all these things, I would often I would be met with like reactionary discomfort from the from the authoritative figure. And I and then I would I would internalize that as my fault or like I should I should change for that, for make them feel more comfortable. And and it's that was not my fault. And that is also their own process to navigate. And it is just so complex. But the more that I saw where I was. Where the power dynamics were in my I was also adding a projection of power would also help me feel more empowered because I was like, okay, this is complex. It's not just I am right or wrong and things like that.

Ryan Park [00:44:07] So like the opposite point of view then. Like how would you make it too where like Someone's more comfortable asking you questions then?

Pat McMahon [00:44:17] One thing that I've always tried to do when. In. In. In examples or opportunities where I've been like managing someone or training someone at something. Is to. You know, I think that there's. There was a realization I had kind of an early point and it ties in a lot to with Katie and Amy both were saying but like recognizing that there's, you know, work relationships aren't strictly one directional, recognizing that there's things that you can learn from people that are hierarchically like below you just kind of breaks up the idea of hierarchy as kind of silly when you're like, Oh, this person that's like that reports into me actually has a lot more working knowledge of this thing that we're collaborating on. You know, maybe my view of it is from like a higher point in the tree, but they're, they're like right at the base of the tree and they can see what's happening on the ground and they understand that. So I've I've always tried to just acknowledge when I don't know, something I think is the biggest key. And just like, you know, rather than I used to just kind of nod and be like, sure, I totally I understand the concept or I've read the book or I've seen the movie that you're talking about, and instead just being like, Oh, let's pause for a second, can we? I actually don't know the reference you're about to make or I don't know the concept that you're about to kind of give an example of can we stop here and and just make sure we both understand that. So I don't know, it'll, it'll be hard, I think until you're in those positions, it's certainly hard to like manage up in that kind of way where, you know, if the person that is giving you instruction isn't also asking questions, it's hard to get them to ask questions, I think. But. I've found it. It'll soften people a little bit if you're able to acknowledge that you don't know something. In my experience, it has then opened up other people to identify that they don't know something. It there's a lot of like I find a lot of like sometimes false confidence in conversation with people occasionally. And I think if you just say, Hey, I'm comfortable saying, I don't know what you're talking about, then they don't have to kind of meet you in a thing you you're an expert on with a false sense of of knowledge or trying to to match your knowledge. Because there's a there's an admission that we have different skill sets, you know, so that kind of thing is something I've tried to put into practice just because I got I got tired of being confused and pretending like I understood what was being talked about, you know?

Ryan Park [00:47:21] Yeah that's awesome because you guys always make it easy for me to ask questions to you guys. So it's like, always really nice to talk.

Pat McMahon [00:47:30] That's great to hear. I'm glad to hear that.

Ryan Park [00:47:33] But I guess on learning like. As you go through life, how do you still find time like motivation to like, learn about new things like. Or study, even study new things like. How do you guys find time or motivation.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:47:57] The simple answer for me is podcasts. Podcast guests are a great source of learning things and you can do it while you're doing lots of other things. The more complex answer is like kind of going back to how you craft your life. One thing I loved and always like with immediately drawn to being an artist when I went to art school, is like the idea that like you can make art about these other things you're learning. Like that's so interior multidisciplinary in our practice. So like I love when I was in school and it didn't matter what the topic was like learning history or about ethics or like science or anything. I was like, Oh, this like negative thing about this, like microcarbon material, whatever. I can put that concept into my art. Like, I, that's one thing. So like, it was a vehicle to continue to learn anything. And I still feel that like with the creative endeavors we're doing and that part of my practice and like building Converge, it's an excuse to learn about like legalistic matters around corporations, whatever it may be. It like you're put in that position. And I think that's for me, one of the things that is hard of being in a traditional work environment where it's very much like do the same thing you've done before and like that's your only way to have security. And it does like create more of a fixed mindset sometimes in people or an expected mindset that like life is chaos. You can't always just rest on your laurels. So you got to learn. Learning's important. I think we all love learning.

Ryan Park [00:49:33] Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Katie Giritlian [00:49:37] I think I've only gotten more curious as I've gotten older, so I don't know if that's helpful. Like, I really would have only gotten more rigorous about maintaining my, like, different spheres and kinds of learning, and I've gotten more protective over it. So I hope that that's like a nice sign.

Ryan Park [00:49:55] No, no. Like, definitely. Because, like, like high school, like, I did. Like, I didn't care about much besides, like, sports. So, like, I guess I had gone through college. Like, I definitely wanted to learn more about the things than just sports so I could see where that's coming from.

Katie Giritlian [00:50:16] Also on the note of too just like Converge and some of the things Amy said just like study groups like forging friendships and relationships through learning and that breeds accountability and the aliveness of learning because you're doing it in these intimate groups. But I remember after college I, some coworkers and I at my first job we would just do reading clubs together and try to maintain that space of learning outside of the context of college. And so that's another tool that I've loved and cherished a lot.

Ryan Park [00:50:52] How do you go about forming those groups, though?

Katie Giritlian [00:50:57] A simple, I love Amy's simple / complex. The simple can be. Hey Amy, you want to read this book together I got this book Caps Lock. Do you wanna read it with me? And uh.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:51:07] I do. And I bought it. It came in the mail yesterday. We're going to read it.

Katie Giritlian [00:51:12] Real example.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:51:12] A real example.

Ryan Park [00:51:15] It's as easy as that huh?

Katie Giritlian [00:51:18] And complex can be can be dreaming of like, oh, this is such a Katie response. But I'll be like sometimes daydreaming of like, you know how it sounds so nice having a group of friends laying by the water and we're all just breathing, okay, how can I get that to happen? Okay, like do doo do doot doo. Like who wants to go? Like to like the water, like me read with me by sunset. So, like, begin from, like, longing. But. But the simple is like, hey, Amy? Do you want to read with me? Hey Pat do you want to join in?

Ryan Park [00:51:51] God. Just as easy as that then. I guess.  

Pat McMahon [00:51:55] It feels super hard when you're like, not in the practice of doing it. It feels super tough. One thing that kind of got me out of my shell and it's something that I've seen my dad do for like my whole life, basically. But like I tried to. I tried to, like, put my own little, like my own take on it. But my dad's always really good about interacting with people just throughout the day, just having small conversations with people asking how their day's going. Like if you're if you're getting a coffee, just ask somebody how their day is going and it gets you in the it's just like it gets you talking to people in like a curious and like, conversational way that like makes asking those, those harder moments easy. You know, it's like, like when you're in a little like, you know, exchange that is within the confines of a transaction, you know, it's super easy to like just practice some of those communication skills, curiosity. I've like made friends with people because I've been like, Hey, what song is playing in the shop right now? You know, like and then you strike a conversation about that and then you find out that they rock climb and then you have a new climbing buddy. You know, it's like it's not it's not just as easy as that for me. Like I've always really struggled with with that. So I kind of have to break it down into how do I do it small scale, how do I then like take those things and now I'm just comfortable asking questions. I also think asking questions is like such a. Such an opener. You know, if there's something you see that strikes your curiosity about something out in the world just asking a question about it, you know, I don't know. I just I love having those little conversations that are based in nothing but, like, call attention to something that somebody might be interested in, you know?

Ryan Park [00:54:02] Yeah. That's kind of like where my questions came from. Not gonna lie. Just was walking. I was like, you know, I don't know this. Maybe I'll ask them.

Pat McMahon [00:54:13]  That's perfect that's the best.

Ryan Park [00:54:17] I feel like Pat beautifully summarized, like a multistep process about building community. Like I feel like there is this like the first step is like, widen your net like meet people, figure out what their deal is, start talking to random people. And then when you identify those that are that you can really make a connection with about something invest in that. Like, you know, make an effort to ask them questions and learn more about them and like make them feel comfortable. They may not want to be your friend, but there is like that two step process that gets to the point where Katie and I do know that we share a connection in certain interests where she can just ask me, Do you want to read this book? And I'll absolutely be yes. And it's like zero weirdness because we went, we did that investment, but there was a time when we were just like, there's another like in but like there's other people, like friends of friends like that's I know both of these people through either like they're friends of another friend and you just like you meet them and then you like build on that.

Ryan Park [00:55:17] So that's like your advice and like meeting more people. Like becoming closer with people. That's what you guys would do. Okay.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:55:27] Well. Katie or Pat what would you do?

Katie Giritlian [00:55:31] What was that?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:55:32] What what is your what is your interpretation of that process?

[00:55:37] I love that. Pat and Amy that was so beautiful. I was like, yes, that is so, so grounding to remember because yes, there was definitely a time where I did not feel. Where? Yeah. Yeah. Just such a process. But one thing I will add to that, so I echo what Pat and Amy shared. But something I'll add is I also attune to like what people have going on. So if they're performing, if they're sharing something, if they're they just wrote a thing and they published it, like spending time getting to know those things and asking questions if they feel safe and comfortable to. But again, letting curiosity be a compass, it seems to be a theme from from all of this, from you asking those questions and from what we're all talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Park [00:56:39] I like that a lot of the curiosity compass. I haven't heard that one. I like that one a lot.

Pat McMahon [00:56:50] That was great. I love curiosity as a compass. I had to write that down.

Ryan Park [00:56:56] Oh. That's a good one. Yeah. And combining those two work and friends. Like how do you have you guys found like a good balance with that now? Or like did you struggle with it at some point?

Pat McMahon [00:57:17] Yeah. I personally, I feel much more in tune with that now. I think the biggest thing for me is that Converge is my primary area of work at the moment. Like I am working with these people as my like primary work and that is so everyone here is here because we share so much in terms of our experience and the way we see the world and the way we want to exist in the world, that it makes friendship among us. Like almost, you know, like inherent, like it's, it's we have similarities that we're able to build relationships on. And I think I struggle with. With like building friendships in my early twenties. It was difficult for me because. I was spending most of my time in work environments with people that were really bought into the systems that I was not super bought into. And so then I kept being like, Why am I not really close with my work friends? Like, why don't I want to spend time with the people that I'm at work with? And it's because I didn't want to spend time in that place. And those people were much more about that place. So for me, the two come together when you when you start spending time in a place and around people that share your values and like share don't necessarily have to share your experiences, but are open to hearing yours and are open to sharing theirs. You know, I really feel like. In the last couple of years, I've started to understand that the relationships and friendships that you make at any stage in your life can be just as important as the foundational ones from early stages in your life. I didn't always have that mindset. And I think that that's allowed me to. Develop friendships and relationships with people that are excuse me that are more closely aligned with my. Where I want to be and how I feel in the world now at my age now. So sorry. That was kind of long winded. I hope I hope I wasn't too kind of all over the place in that response.

Ryan Park [00:59:39] No, I was perfect. Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:59:43] I think there's also a lot of questions. At least there was at the beginning of like tech around the idea of creating spaces that are homogenous. In that there is this push and pull about. People will feel more productive when they're working with people that they can trust and be vulnerable with. And it's hard to have vulnerability and trust with people who are very different than you or seem to have like a like being opposition to you because society is set up in that way. And so it is a hard thing to balance like like intimate intimacy through heterogeneity. And that continues to be a hard thing we have politically. But also it is complicated in a work setting where you're under the deadlines of capitalism trying to be productive. So I don't know, like I think that's why there's so much ideas around professionalism and like I really relate to what Pat experienced like being in a room with people that I didn't really want to be friends with for whatever reason. But you spend so much of your time with these people and like it is one it's one method to try to get people who are different to work together. But then it also reinforces a very like normative, like traditional idea of what everyone should conform to behave towards and discard the rest of their identity, which can be more painful if you're not naturally part of that hierarchy and demographic. That was conceptual and vague.

Ryan Park [01:01:15] No. That's perfect. Yeah. Thank you. Then how do you how do you deal with the people that you know or not deal with, but like how do you interact with the people you don't really want to hang out with outside of work, but ike you have to work with them still.

Pat McMahon [01:01:34] For me, there was always. I was always trying to maintain an understanding that, you know. Like it was always really hard for me if I could sense someone else's frustration or, you know, if there was like if somebody was having a difficult day and that made communication with them difficult. I just tried to always keep in mind, like, that's me on any other day, you know, like I am. I'll be having a crappy day. And really take that into work with me and wish I could shake it. And like, I know that I'm someone's least favorite coworker that day. You know, so, like, trying to, I don't know, just trying to maintain. Just general levels of patience and respect, I think is crucial, even when you're not necessarily always met with those trying to trying to not let frustrations seep into. I don't know. The way you see a person I think was always crucial trying to, like, maintain a distance from. The, you know, like what we were talking about earlier, like if I didn't put so much of myself into the fear and like the the feeling of, like doing right by the work, then I wouldn't have gotten so invested in whether or not the, the people on my team around me were having a good day or were in a good mood or trying to read their their mood as like a reflection of the work that I was doing. Too much of that was happening in my day to day. So I think it it really probably starts from. You know, just some of the stuff that we've been talking about all along is like recognizing boundaries. And I don't know. Trying not to ask too much of your coworkers. Trying not to make sure you're trying to make sure they don't ask too much of you. I don't know. You know, that was kind of an ambling response. But I feel like it's it can be tricky. There's definitely people that you might not get along with in the work space, but like. I don't know trying to remember that like I'm not everyone's cup of tea is also helpful like you know, I don't know. I just tried to maintain that, that recognition that like, I might be getting on someone else's nerves and not realize it just by nature of the way I go about my day.

Katie Giritlian [01:04:13] Yeah I that resonates so much. I've been really leaning into like the spirit of good humor, like even in the role as the teacher and like, okay, like I know I'm going to be annoying today, but like, la la la, like I just really practice that, that humility towards self too and, and just bringing in and not not to the point of being careful that doesn't slip into self-deprecation or self-critique. But humility has been, has been like a, um, an energizer for, for engaging those dynamics and for approaching different dynamics and work in collectives. The shifting boundaries that I might be coming with. And, and it's not because the humor helps me not sink to too deep into whatever might whatever I might, I could be taking you personally. And I think on that note too. I don't know how this I don't have a succint response for how this might relate but something that with what Pat was saying too I was thinking about how. In my practice of trying to gauge my boundaries in different contexts and work environments. A lot of it is about managing my own expectations and reminding myself like, okay, this person from from pat dynamics it might be complicated Katie so just like be, possibly prepared for that and just kind of like. A few minutes before any day or any session being like, okay, this might this might be the day I'm not to like, diagnose anybody or or project to be can't be careful not to project too much. Just being like, okay, this might happen. Okay, let's get ready now and be present. And that's that's been helpful.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:05:57] Kind of going Off with Katie saying and like diagnose but not projects for me sometimes it's helpful is identifying specifically what might be I what the issue I might be having not like necessarily what their deal is but like I don't like the way they do a task or I don't like the way they said they talked about this topic like they're very different things. That could be the reason why you may not be getting along with someone and like trying to have empathy and like maybe find something that you do, an area which you can appreciate that person maybe you still need to put a lot of boundaries. But there's an area of appreciation. And like for me, when I do have like an ethical quandry around a situation in which I'm really challenged, I for me, my like moral compass is what, what would I do or what should be done under communism. Like, that's how my brain is. And like communism and the like. Let's all work together in our heterogeneity, not the fascistic communism idea. And that you've been in those situations, the person that is like seems the most opposing to me. They are still part of our whole. And how do you how do you appreciate them in that whole? And then they're like, that's the like ideal way in my mind. Then the like real nitty gritty is like sometimes I remember when I was younger and I like would vent a lot about that person and it makes me feel really bad though afterwards could be like, what if they found out? And like that I would go to this whole, like, paranoia situation. So I really wish I had a therapist when I was younger to be a safe. There's like a safe person to, like, put that energy and then, like, not have to feel like I gave it into the world. And of course, having a therapist is privileged to have a therapist, but just like thinking about that, that like it's venting is one thing, but then like the feeling of like, oh, did I go beyond and put negativity in the world or do they possibly hear it is like so much worse in my opinion. That experience was really hard and like I am like time I've grown away from that. Like, it's not as much of a concern anymore.

Katie Giritlian [01:07:55] That resonates so much Amy oh my god. Wow. Something I really learned and value so much from Amy is this word appreciate and then from Converge and I, I, I'm so grateful for that like just appreciation as a mode of showing up for and being present with difference has been really huge. Thank you, Amy.

Ryan Park [01:08:26] Yeah for real. Hearing hearing the appreciation is always like so motivating. Always just makes me happy.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:08:38] I think that's also going back to how do you get people to ask questions like. Also appreciation. Maybe it makes people feel more like they can be their true selves and if their true self is I have a question, maybe they'll ask you.  

Ryan Park [01:08:57] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. They. Sorry I'm like out of questions now, you guys answered like all of them.

Pat McMahon [01:09:06] No, it's all good.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:09:07] That's great.

Ryan Park [01:09:10] Thank you, though.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:09:10] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:09:12] Of course. Thank you.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:09:14] Yeah. Thank you.

Pat McMahon [01:09:15] Your curiosity is what's driving this. And I feel like that's one thing that I've really cherished about Converge. Like the whole time has been the way that, like everyone around me in in this group is able to articulate something that I've not been able to articulate that I've felt and related to. And so, like, your curiosity was the driver for this conversation in which I learned so many different ways to articulate things that I had felt and experienced or identify, even things I'd felt and experienced because Katie and Amy were have experienced the same thing and are able to articulate it beautifully. So, I mean.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:09:59] So are you!

Pat McMahon [01:09:59]  This is just a place of full of appreciation. Like, we're just like we're just. That's like the fuel that runs this, I think.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:10:09] No, no, no. 100%. Like, I. I definitely got a lot out of this, like. Like I definitely sorry. I know that some of the questions may have sounded the same, but I think we got a lot out of it. So thank you.

Pat McMahon [01:10:25] You're so welcome. Yeah thank you.

Katie Giritlian [01:10:27] Thank you so much. I'm this is so lovely and so grounding and so energizing. And I'm very grateful for it.

Pat McMahon [01:10:40] And this channel is also open to I think like any time you have other questions, like maybe we'll do a check in, in, you know, in 12 months when you like you don't know the questions you're going to have to get in the new environment. So like there's even more work questions. I'm sure of it. You know.

Ryan Park [01:10:58] Oh yeah. You guys, you'll be the first to know, so don't worry about that.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:11:06] Yeah, that sounds great. One thing that, one thought I had that I wanted to also share about that is even in situations like ours, when the ideal is supposed to be horizontal, there are hierarchical dynamics happening with everyone. Like that's just natural and human relationships and like the dynamic one person maybe have with another person, maybe leading into what you're perceiving about your relationship with someone like in a really traditional example, someone may have a boss, your boss may have a boss, and that boss is making your boss's life hard. And that is why you're getting some negativity from them. And like, that's not your fault. But it is just to say, like, you know, the interconnections are so complicated. So again, don't take it personally and understand that there's so much complexity in human relationships.

Ryan Park [01:11:54] Definitely, I'll remember that one. Thanks.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:11:59] Thank you for being you. Aww. I love that Katy's like a face of so much joy and, like, appreciation for what's happening.

Katie Giritlian [01:12:13] I know. Oh my gosh. It's so true, Amy knows. I mean, this is so amazing. Woo.

Pat McMahon [01:12:32] Yeah. This really did feel so good. When I first signed on, I was saying to Amy, like, I have not had a productive day. Like today to this point has been less productive than I wanted it to be. And now, like, I feel enthused. I feel like I could like now I feel like I just want to carry this energy all day, you know?

Ryan Park [01:12:53]  Definitely. Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:12:57] Yes. So let us know if we can answer more questions. Any time.

Ryan Park [01:13:02] Oh, thank you. I'll take you up on that.

Pat McMahon [01:13:04] Also, in a less formal setting than like a podcast, if you want, like, if, you know, if you have some more questions that you don't want us to then broadcast out. I hope that's also cool, too.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:13:16] Oh, yeah. And in the spirit of being like the people who, quote, have authority, you should ask questions. I have a question for you.

Ryan Park [01:13:23] Sure.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:13:24] Yeah. What, like, given all of us are at least, like, ten years older than you, what do you feel about your as you look into your future of, like, the world and jobs? Like, what are your expectations? What do you see in the world? Like, what is your point of view about? Like, things going well, things being harder than before. Like how do you see the world in general? And it could be about any of those topics.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:13:49] How do I see it going?

Amy Yoshitsu [01:13:51] Yeah.

Ryan Park [01:13:53] I have a like like after being in Converge and like being a part of it. I'd have a more optimistic point of view, just kind of. I think everything's going to be fine. I think everything will be okay. Just kind of kind of go with it. And I think what Katie said about like curiosity as a compass, I think I'm gonna follow that now, but. I. Definitely. I don't know. I hadn't really thought of that question before. That was a good one. I would just say more. More optimistic. More positive. I don't know, sorry. That may not answer your question.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:14:38] That's okay. Cool. I just want to. Getting in the habit of it. Like it's not. We're not just here to answer questions. We're also here to ask you questions.

Pat McMahon [01:14:45] Totally.

Ryan Park [01:14:46] Yeah. Please do. Like. If I can learn something new that'd be great to.

Pat McMahon [01:14:54] There's so much we can learn from each other, I feel like. And sometimes that learning from each other is just like a recognition of what we've already known. You know, I think that's like something that's really cool, too, is like it's not necessarily it doesn't always feel like learning as much as, like, enlightening or like showing or like, you know, just using different synonyms for the same idea. That's something I always really like to do. And shout out therapy. My therapist was always really good at like it remains very good at like reframing things for me. If I'm if I'm looking at something as like one type of I'm trying to think of a good example, but like. You know, if I if I say I feel confused, I'm confused, I don't understand something. She would reframe it as curiosity. And I think that that kind of thing is, like, always important. You know, so like learning, showing, demonstrating, like whatever it is. Like, I don't know. I feel like I pick up so much from the people that are a part of this group, you know?

Ryan Park [01:16:07] Yeah, definitely. I really learned a lot from being a part of this. Thank you. I can't. I can't. I can't emphasize that enough. Like. It's been a great experience being a part of Converge.

Pat McMahon [01:16:28] You're doing our marketing for us right there. You're just like, I feel more optimistic about the state of the world because of Converge. Like can we put. Can we put that at the front of all of our like pitch decks, like, holy cow.

Ryan Park [01:16:45] But it's a genuine it's like in marketing it it's like.

Pat McMahon [01:16:53] Bring Your Full Self is put together through the collective effort of the members of Converge Collaborative. A special thanks today to Amy, Ryan, Katie, and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group, our work, or we'd just like to say hi. You can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative dot com.