Transcript for S1E3

Katie Giritlian [00:00:00] This day has been like, woo woo, woo woo. So that's um the sorry, 30 mark of two, that is the wrong time for Pat. 2:30 EST so that.

Louis Bryant III [00:00:09] 11:30 here.

Katie Giritlian [00:00:10] An hour and a half from the beginning that we started.

Louis Bryant III [00:00:12] Gotchu.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:15] Hi everyone. My name is Amy Yoshitsu.

Katie Giritlian [00:00:18] Hi everyone. My name is Katie Giritlian, and welcome to another episode of Bring Your Full Self, a podcast of conversations focused on the intersection of work, emotions, creative, and the experience of being a person of color. These first few episodes will be conversations between two people inside Converge Collaborative. And Converge Collaborative is a workers co-op that functions as part creative consulting agency and part arts collective. Each of us comes to converge with our own experiences around work, labor, workplaces, compensation. And how these have shaped our understanding of ourselves, our identities, passions, inspirations, as well as our current conditions.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:01:05] Awesome. Katie, thank you so much for joining me and introducing a lovely conversation between you and Louis Bryant III, who's another member of Converge. I love this episode and the energy of sharing, giving, learning together that emanated from the conversation. I love when you immediately ask Louis about his definition of being self-taught, especially around photography, and how that topic and the practice of photography, especially in education, wrap back around at the end so that you can talk to about how to teach people of all ages about how to use a camera. This fascinating to me. I was wondering while I was listening about your background with photography, did you pick up with cameras in person? Did you feel the same or similar barriers to entry that Louis did?

Katie Giritlian [00:01:47] Aw. Amy, I so appreciate hearing this reflection of our conversation. I've been thinking about this conversation with Louis so much, and I was so excited at the threads that you picked up on and that you named. Namely that it seems like both Louis and I embody this relationship between mutual learning and the practices of photography, and that we've both been nourished by the ways our teaching practice has informed our photography practice and vice versa. And I appreciate your question so much. Regarding, you know, how did I practice when I was younger? Did I pick up a camera? Did I experience barriers to entry? And so I had access to a camera at a fairly young age. I have an older brother around eight years older, and so I had access to his technology. And the first camera I had access to was this old point and shoot that like lit up green, like little lights on it. Oh, my God, I missed it so much, but I didn't feel necessarily comfortable using it. I was intrigued by it. I was like, what is this object that lights up green? But I remember feeling very hesitant by its power and I like intuited that it was like this like very charged object. And I remember more, or rather I remember as soon as I had access to visit places on my own, I would go to flea markets near my house and encounter those like bins of found photographs. And there was actually that access that taught me my instincts around photography more than playing with the instrument of the camera itself. I would sift through these bins and like quickly pick up on the language of the kinds of pictures people took, the kinds they discarded, and also quickly understood the scales of archives that pictures of white families and white sentimentality outnumbered those of BIPOC. And as someone who was white passing was through these photographic encounters that I quickly grasped, the ways in which my identity both fit into and fit outside of, did not fit into, that whiteness. And so it was that shaky way of engaging with, and of not knowing how to look at these photographs wherein I found for myself methods for reading and then someday teaching photography.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:04:11] Oh, I love that answer. That really helps me align some of your other practices and your archiving and your print work with your practice related to photography. So that really elucidates so much. So thank you so much for sharing that story. I love that if you know, if that camera is long gone.

Katie Giritlian [00:04:31] That's a great question. I... It might be Amy. That might be a long ago.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:04:36] Okay. I understand. I understand. Maybe we'll find something similar to it on Etsy or eBay or a pawnshop someday. But, yeah, I want to find that for you. Well, I was also like in listening to your conversation, I was also really interested in how you both talked about the different experiences you've had involving teaching young people about all topics and knowing that learning is a journey and that it happens in many ways. Not only do you talk about using as many methods as possible to share information and educate whether it be text, visuals, audio, etc. But you also talk about the levels of structure needed within the learning process. And I really identified with when you said that you felt like structure with to it with control and that it's not always the case. But that was like your instinct. And so I was really happy to hear you all talking about those different modes of teaching. And I found that this has been so important in collaboration and especially as we've been building Converge. I found this interesting adjusted position also with both of you talk about your educational journeys and how you mentioned a capital A art capital H history that really stuck in my mind. I resonated with this because I relate that to my own experience of my formal education and like capital art.

Katie Giritlian [00:05:52] Yes. Oh, I. I appreciate hearing that so, so much. And it gives so much context to to what I have learned from Converge and from working with you and getting to know your practice, Amy. And something that I appreciated so much from and with Converge has been all the ways in which you and Converge has has been curious and asked and also supported everyone and all possible modalities of learning. So there is there is the text, there's the recording of the meeting, there is the text transcript, there is a diagram. And for all I mean, with that offering also comes like so many spaces and avenues to continue getting to know how we all learn and supporting that. And so in building from that, I would love to hear from you more about your experiences in that combination of both formal education and informal collaboration. What inspired you to bring to bring this facilitation, to Converge, to support all these different modalities of learning?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:07:03] Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for calling out all of those attempts at trying to share information. It really has been a journey for me and I know it's a lot of work for all of us. And yeah, thanks for asking about my background regarding collaboration. I think back immediately to school, elementary, middle, high school, college experiences and you know, the emphasis on group work. And I have to say that I was very anti group work when I was growing up and I definitely was raised in a mentality of individual achievement. And I think it's taken me a long time to really embrace teamwork and especially in recent experiences I've had prior to Founding Converge, that led me to really understand the emotional support it can provide, the beauty and the fact that it can help actually create and facilitate and execute large projects that are really hard to do on your own. And so it's just been really a learning experience for me and the some of the original founders, they're the ones who really taught me about how everyone learns and processes and teaches differently. And so it's from those initial roots, the people who I was so inspired by that they taught me that I need to teach through different methods, like my default method is to just like write very long paragraphs, which I think are definitely too long for everyone, but it's like it's how I process, right? And so I'm just like, oh obviously and also how I learn. So that's what's helped me. And actually the podcast, this podcast has come about the early, early, nascent stages were that some weeks I would do recordings of myself updating on the founding of the founding of the company and updating on like the events of the week via audio message as opposed to me writing a very large log. So that has been wonderful for me to learn and see that it actually helps people. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so excited about this. And with that spirit of collaboration, let's dive into the conversation between you, Katie, and Louis Bryant, III.

Katie Giritlian [00:09:07] Awesome.

Katie Giritlian [00:09:14] Hi, Louis.

Louis Bryant III [00:09:15] Hi, Katie.

Katie Giritlian [00:09:18] I'm well, I'm looking forward to this. How are you?

Louis Bryant III [00:09:22] I'm well. I'm also looking forward to this. I always like to think of the first few minutes as like warming up or, you know, as or, you know, getting ready to have our conversation. We're just going through our warm up drills and looking at our factoid sheets. But I'm excited to really learn more about you, to peel back a few layers and discover more about your your personal journey, your artistic journey and just the perspective that you you see life through, learning about the experiences that kind of got you here. Because I know like work and cooperative work, are, like at the basis of this. But the fact that, you know, like, you know, everything happens for a reason and there are, you know, pathways and to a lot of different directions. But one of them got to here. And so that's kind of like, well, what do you think like pushed you in this direction or like how are we here having this conversation right now? Like you're in New York. Here I am in Sacramento.

Katie Giritlian [00:10:21] Well, all right. I loved everything you just said. I feel those things. You put them so I'm gonna echo them back. I also love just the texture of like the warm up before the conversation and naming that. Just like owning that like what's that warm up like. But even before all of this I know also too for the audio file it can be good to like introduce ourselves and our names and pronouns and our how we identify whether that's through a mode of practice or otherwise. So I can, I can go first. I can give a little in my brief intro bite soundbite. Perfect. I'm Katie. Katie Giritlian, pronouns, she, her and I identify as of SWANA descent, and as someone that builds and maintains spaces and sites for mutual learning. How about you Louis?

Louis Bryant III [00:11:20] Hi. Yeah. Louis Bryant III. Louis Washington Bryant III. I am from the East Coast, the Baltimore area. I live in Sacramento, California. This is my fifth year in California and I go by he him and and yeah I just an excited to learn about our processes. I shoot I'm a photojournalist a travel photographer and and I love capturing candid moments. Street photography I guess is my my playground. And so I guess that's why I like living near metropolitan areas because that's where you get a lot of street action. But I will also go out on the farm and, you know, I got on the back country road, shoot farm scenes, everything counts as the street.

Katie Giritlian [00:12:16] Actually, that connects with the question I am dying to ask you. That might it might jump. It might jump to like where we're at now, I don't know how linear I don't know how linear in time we're going to get you, but I'm dying to ask Louis is, I see and hear from you in your materials you shared with me: self-taught, self-taught photographer. And I'm wondering if you can share what self teaching looks like for you and what are its like boundary like? Are you still self teaching? Like what is the what is the threshold of self teaching?

Louis Bryant III [00:12:53] Interesting. That is a great question. And I think, you know, in life we're always learning. We keep making mistakes, the lessons are there and we can get frustrated at our mistakes or we can see them as lessons. So I am one to say that I make a mistake per shoot. So it's always a lesson to be learned and there's always growth. And that's part of where the self teaching derived from. Let's see. So going back, I had always had a little bit I've always had interest in art. I've always been, you know, an illustrator or a painter of some sort between middle school, elementary, middle school and high school. And then I decided to split ways with my artistic pathway and be like, Well, maybe I should go into more technical things, things with my hands. And so I decided to get into automotive, which again pushed me. I'm only giving this background, because it took me away from art, like I guess this path where I guess formal education would have been remedied for I would have been the path of least resistance in this term. But, you know, moving forward, I, I came back to art so I pushed away from it and then realized that that void was there. And, you know, again, every every direction you take is is meant to be. So I didn't see it as like, oh, I should have done art or I should have gone to school for arts. Why did I do this? I, just, like all art, have found their way back into my life, whether I liked it or not. And I learned that as like, I need to keep nurturing this. And this is the passion. This is the fire inside. I always thought it was going to be you know laid into the text or laid into books or laid into a curriculum. But, you know, I was just constantly reminded that, like the things that make you happy are you know, the moments you have with with your art. And so I graduated college with a Crim background. I did a little deviation and moved to Canada for a little bit, nurturing my automotive technical technology itch that I had to fulfill. And then during that time, a friend that was in Canada, a friend that I made in Canada had a DSLR. And I think up until that point I always saw cameras as a very extensive tool. Someone either has to pass it down you, down to you, and I've only seen 40 plus year old white men with them. So it just never seemed like an object that, you know, if you don't see people practicing or in the field that you're interested in, other than the iconic ones that are in books like Gordon Parks, you can't I just don't think that's for you in that because they told you not to. It's intrinsically input because, you know, you live by the examples that you see. And so I saw that that was my big boundary. You know, I'd put a mental block there like, well, no one gave me a camera and I can't afford a camera. And I wasn't this wasn't passed down to me. So that's cool that photography can exist, but that's not my world. And it had nothing to do with not wanting to be into it or being intimidated by it, but literally just had my own roadblocks. So I took a path into poetry and poetry and I am talking too much, but I give you this journey. Poetry. But that's it. It found its way. I think I put in my, you know, a little background. I lived in Canada and I worked on automotive cars. I was working on race cars, so I was on a pit crew and it was something again I said I wanted to do. I graduated from college. I had like a social science background. I had an automotive technology background. I worked on cars all throughout college. So it was something that, you know, I'm still passionate about doing. But then once I was in that world, I felt like I had a funny taste in my mouth and I couldn't figure out what it was. But it was the lack of, you know, fulfillment in the sense of like, yes, I got here, but I don't feel fulfilled because I chose this path on my own. And I wanted like I just felt this need to give back. And I was like, how could I get this far? And, and, and like not look back. And not in the sense of looking back at my past, but looking back at the people that have gotten me here, the, you know, the little conversations that pushed me in one direction or the other. And so it was just like something that was just like making me a little restless while living in Canada, while working on cars. Like, Wow, you got to this point and I want to do something about that. Meanwhile, while I was working on cars, I was writing 400 words a day, to a thousand words a day. Just pick up a glass of wine and write short stories, poetry, whatever came to mind, I was like, I just wanted to flex. In the world of writing and poetry, creative writing and prose all took a very strong presence in my life. And I knew, again, the art. And so then, you know, like so then I came back from Canada, became a teacher because I wanted to tell kids that, hey, if you want to work on racecars, you know, push yourself to do that. And like, don't let anybody tell you you can't. Because I told myself I couldn't be a photographer, but like, guess what? I bought a camera, so, like so and as soon as I became a teacher, I went on Craigslist and bought my first DSLR. It was a broken Olympus because, you know, Craigslist shopping, you never know what you're going to get. And so I had already like a couple of buttons that I didn't know how to use and then a couple of buttons that were dysfunctional. So I think that there is a good handicap and a limit at the same time. But I told myself, I'm going to use this camera and I want to teach myself everything and every button not here until I have reached the ceiling.

Katie Giritlian [00:18:37] Oh, my God.

Louis Bryant III [00:18:37] In the capacity of this camera. I will buy books. I went to an old used bookstore. I picked a book camera books about manual photography, about analog and film reading about that, how it applies to this DSLR. And I just kept pushing myself in the setting small goals like, all right, well, this year, you know, you learn a few buttons. Maybe you'll shoot one portrait this year for pay. Not just for fun. And then they will shoot family portraits next year. Maybe we'll shoot an engagement shoot. Maybe we'll be an assistant on in a wedding. Maybe we'll shoot our own wedding. Maybe we'll shoot five weddings and all these. Just like through the years. It's like, let's just try this. Let's push it up a notch. Let's take it up a notch. Oh, this camera can't do this anymore for you. And, you know, you need to do this. So let's let's upgrade not because it's an electronic toy and, you know, you're a gadget head, but because you need it to work for you, you know. And so that's the self-taught. Like, I know it was a lot of, a big nutshell. So but that's like how it all kind of like, oh, like planted the seed and how it all percolated. It was just like, okay, I want to do this. Okay, so how are you to do this? And I think going back to one of the bullet points in my list of them I put, my parents are very motivational, inspiring to me because I grew up where either most of my friends had one parent households which, you know, matriarch leading grandma or mom or, you know, households where their parents were very constraining and limiting to the ideas and the aspirations that the child had. So, you know, if they wanted to do something they couldn't or if they wanted to be an athlete, they couldn't, or if they wanted to be, you know, a carpenter, they had to be a doctor. And so I was just blessed that I had parents that were like, well, if you want to do it, do you have a plan? And that was the only thing that they said is. Do you have a plan? Not like, well, that's ridiculous. You went to school for criminology. Why would you want to be a race car mechanic or why would you wanna be a race car mechanic? Why would you want to be a teacher? You just want to become a race car mechanic or, you know, all these things that are like challenging me in the sense of like, well, you're making terrible mistakes or you're I was young too, and you want to hurry up and harness down. And like, none of that was ever implied throughout my raising, throughout my adolescence, throughout my young adult, and throughout my adulthood. Like, they've always just been, like, pushing me toward, like, do what makes me happy and then make sure you just got to play it. And so that, that, oh, you know, that being there is like, okay, well, if I were to teach myself photography, what's the plan? What do I want to do? And you know, and a part of me does wish I had some formal background and part of me, I think is on the journey now, or like I taught myself these things. Maybe it is time to get, you know, a little bit of a box curriculum to, you know, dial in on some of these thoughts. Because when I was reading your background and reading profile, you know, just looking through your website, reading through your descriptions, reading, looking through your imagery, and I was just like, wow, the layers and depth within the like it can be the most simplest illustration or like or image or even just thought. But it is explained in a way that, you know, I want to participate. I want to see more of this. I want to and I'm just like, wow, where did you even get to where did the seed come from that conceptualized this thought, you know, in some like a lot of them are some are independent, some are cooperative, some are with organizations. But all of em. I was just I was literally drawn to everyone. I clicked every link. It was like, whoa, this is cool. And so some of the times I realized I'm like, you know, formal education, especially in the creative space, is obviously a blessing where you can have instructors who, you know, walk the walk and have, you know, can really impart a lot of their experience. And in the in the work that they're trying to, you know, in the in the education that they're trying to, you know, showcase for you. But also, I also know, like sometimes because they're telling you should be done this way, you only think about that way and sometimes they'll open up to the other perspective. So that was like part of the reason I'm like, well, glad I didn't do formal education in it, but I see the, the need and the beauty of both, you know. And so yeah. Had all that to say. Yeah that's why I like I'm interested in your pathway and journey because I just know like I took a lot of deviations, but it's still like I always believe in your manifestations that you speak it into existence and then like if that's what you want, you just keep speaking it and keep putting one step. And so it's like, I want to know about your stats. I want to know about what you spoken to existence, what you saw and, and what you still see and like the layers that literally, like, are involved in your process. Because I think they're just well-thought out, beautifully crafted and like especially working with others in a collaborative sense and collective sense. But between the Armenian collective that you're working with and like the ICP, it's just like it's not easy to just work with other artists. It's not easy to just like start speaking a language together without a lot of interpretations or, you know, like, oh yeah, you know, I want to know about like some of those, like, how are you navigating in that? So I guess we could start from your, your background.

Katie Giritlian [00:23:56] I appreciate that so much. Also, everything you shared, I'm just like oozing with so many more questions for you. And so I'm already like taking so many notes was like, wow, okay, so many things. It's so interesting. Like, I think that this tension you named of, like in formal versus formal education resonates a lot for me and when I think about my journey. So yeah, I went, I went to, I studied like art history capital A capital H, an undergrad which like I have a lot of thoughts on and I don't know how much I get into right now, but like so Academic Capital A and I resisted that by the end for a few different reasons. But I am grateful and very grateful for for me, for the things that I did get from that education. But after college, I worked at an art center and I met so many people that would become such important collaborators in my life. And I worked in the publishing department and in that department I worked with artists to make books, and a lot of my job was actually administrative, which meant that I was the person. Like that could seem like the, like, you know, boring tasks of organizing things or corresponding or keeping everyone on track or offering editorial support, but mainly through a support role. It actually was like I saw that role, the administrator as the translator, as like the person that like is constantly making sure everyone's on the same page. Okay, like, okay, you said this, but I heard this and they heard that like, it's constantly, like, aware of the thing you just named at the end of that of like, oh, wow. Like the potential for misfires so delicate and so volatile when working with others. And that's what's beautiful and also very fragile. And actually it was through that administrative work that I feel like I got to acquire and be in that very space and acquire the sheer muscles and practice of of being in that in between and being that bridge. And so and then through that, through working on those books, I fell in love with the small press community, the independent publishing community. Zines. Reading rooms artist run reading rooms artist run presses and like seeing the ways that they foster informal education and learn with each other. Because when you're working on a book, you're like learning together exactly what you're saying. Like you learn how to work together and you learn how to translate and communicate because you're you're putting this thing together. It's the content in the book, but you're having to communicate how you're putting that thing together. And, and it was, it was through that, that I, I, I, every day. I'm so grateful for what I, what I learned from, from witnessing and working with small press communities. And so then though I did return to formal education grad school at the program I was in and then I'm a very grateful for it, but the program I was in was actually quite loose and also, you know. It fell into COVID, the beginning of COVID's arms. So. So things got even like a little bit more loosey, loosey goosey. And I feel like I got to actually, like, care. I feel like I got to. How do I put this? Navigate education on my own terms. And I carried what I learned and learned and continue to learn from small presses and collective working DIY resources. All of those things. I carried that through my grad school, which what I which, you know, it was year, two years long again fell in COVID's arms. And so most of the time I was just working on my thesis, which was building a small press. Like by the end, I was like, I'm not going to make like a single object. Like, No, I'm going to make a small press. I can continue to work with other people. And I got so lucky because two of my dear collaborators and close friends, you know, I invited them to work on like the first book with me of the small press while I got to start designing the small press. And so even even on a thing like a thesis, I was like, Okay, now how can we still continue the informal education and collective work? And so that's where I'm at today. And I and I, that's why I am I'm so excited to be part of Converge by working with groups like the Armenian creatives, which is a collective of folks of Armenian descent who identify as artists or creatives in some way. And yeah, just like so valuing the learning that happens in collaboration, whether that's like the smallest conversation over a decision to like the, to the larger object you're making together. So I think that yeah, that gives a good jist. A question I have for you, which I feel like might segue well from that is. When you think about I was so it was so lovely to hear you talk a bit more about the like textures of these moments of self, of the self taught up, like wrestling with the camera, like getting the manuals, all of that. I was like, oh, yes, like the like the tool. The tool is the tool is like its own space for learning. And I'm wondering how you how when you teach, when you work in education as a facilitator or a teacher, how do you carry how you liked learning? How do you bring that to people you're working with?

Louis Bryant III [00:29:40] Yeah well, good question. I like that. And and I realized, you know, through teaching that, you know, at a very beginning part of teaching that no one is going to be as motivated as the next person sitting next to you or as motivated as you. And no one is going to understand as well as you understand it, and not as well in the sense of like, I understand it better than you, but it's just like understand in the degree and form in which you understand. Like that's just how it is you hear a song and it gives you a color. I hear a song, it gives me a different color. We are the same song. And the colors may blend well. They may like make opposites, but like it doesn't make. And that's what I would I was a sixth grade language arts and social studies teacher, and so I was teaching in a in a district that valued teaching to the test. It also value did not value social studies or history because language arts is a tested subject. Funds are based off of testing and student performance, and so is your pay in a lot of cases. And so you kind of like spear and like teach in this. Like, how do you understand the question? Do you understand what the question is? Ask you? Do you understand why they're asking you this way? Not in any conceptual, creative way, but just do you understand how they're asking you teach to the test? And so that like rubbed me wrong. But then with social studies and then I started a poetry club, I was just like, okay, everybody just like open your wings and let's just, you know, if you want to write raps, if you want to write about how you hate the subject, that you have a project on, if you want to talk about home, but like let's, let's have that space. So then, you know, so by teaching sixth grade, I, you know, I learn like, I mean, is the simplest thing of just like, hey, let me tell you what homework is tonight, okay? I'm a write on the board. What homework is that? All right. I'm going to give you the homework sheet tonight. I'm going to draw what homework is going to be tonight. And like, by the time I figured out that I needed to do all four of those instead of just say like, well, draw it today and I'll headed out tomorrow, I needed to do all four of those because that's the way I would get at least 85% of the students on board with doing homework. Otherwise I get the ones written on the board of I be like 7 to 10, maybe less. And then if I just sit it out loud, maybe 3 to 4, and if I pass it out maybe eight or nine, but like and by drawing it maybe three or four, but like putting that all together, like, okay, these are like.

Katie Giritlian [00:32:14] Like the repetition?'

Louis Bryant III [00:32:15] Modalities of learning. Mhmm.

Katie Giritlian [00:32:16] In different ways? Yes!

Louis Bryant III [00:32:17] Repetition and modality. It's absolutely important. And you know, like even with Amy and I, we were talking about working together. I was like, I know if you wrote it all out and you told me what it was, I would still see Mandarin. But then moment you would draw it out. I would start like understanding the translation much better. And so, you know, just learning, even knowing as an adult how you internalize, how you how do you even express yourself. And, you know, mine would be very vivid and like imaginary not imaginary, but using imagery in my text and sometimes people who are very type-A or don't see a lot of the creative nuances would just be like, just tell me what it is. Yeah, it was just just get to that. And, you know, and it was like, Oh, okay, I should not have to be so flowery or I could be flowery and direct, so that way. But it's you do it, you know what you need to do. And so, you know.

Katie Giritlian [00:33:18] Oh my god.

Louis Bryant III [00:33:18] I always wanted to be in that, in that setting where I just wanted to tell somebody like. I know what the you know, the block in Baltimore or even in West Oakland or East Oakland could be very like in the mindset that you could put your boundaries are are very obvious and you can own them or they can own you. And then it's like I've had, you know, like stories of children who just like, know the boundaries that they are up against and, you know, are headstrong enough to say, like, I'm going to push through it. But then there's others that recognize those boundaries and succumb to whatever the reality is that is surrounding them. And and either and both of those mines were just as bright and shining and capable. And so, you know, that goes back to like my own boundary of like getting into photography. Like I would have gotten into it at 15, 13 and had I just like push myself a little bit or someone, you know, like, and again, it's not me waiting for somebody to tell me, but, you know, like that was what it was like. Someone would say, like, Hey, why don't you come to photography club after school like that one little inkling could have changed things. So I offer that in many cases, like if I go to a church, if I go on assignment and someone's like 15 and they're like, I like cameras. Here's my email address. Ask me any questions you need to know. I will bring you on a shoot. I will if you want to camera, I will find you a camera because there's a way to get a camera into your hands and, you know, like that. Again, that's the giving back part. Like I got to that poetry part, I got to writing poetry and working on cars and then I wanted to teach. Now I got into the teaching realm and got into photography and see the value in educating through the tool of a camera or any art space and know that like, okay, well, you know, between the many different ways that we can learn, there's also many different pathways to success. And I'm not telling everybody to do one or the other or no informal education versus higher education, but you just need to start exploring and figure out what you want to do. And and so, again, like, if if I just hear if I know that like someone has interest in, you know, the realm, even if it's like I'm not even related to so much of the dance, but if you're want to be a dancer, give you information. Because I know dancers that I photographed and like, maybe, just maybe, like, I guess helped, you know, spark something that was just a thought into a seed or a conversation or more research. And so I'm always about was like, tell me, what do you want to do? Even if you don't know what you want to do, what do you want to explore?

Pat McMahon [00:36:05] That concludes part one of a conversation with Katie Giritlian and Louis Bryant III. Part two is available to listen and can be found wherever you are right now, listening to Part one. Bring Your Full Self is put together through the collective effort of the members of Converge Collaborative. Special thanks today to Katie and Louis and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group, our work, or we'd just like to say hi. You can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative dot com or on Instagram at Converge Collaborative.