Transcript for S1E4

Pat McMahon [00:00:02] This is part two of a conversation with Katie Giritlian and Louis Bryant III. Part one is available to listen and can be found wherever you are now, listening to part two.

Louis Bryant III [00:00:15] I'm always about was like, Tell me, what do you want to do? Even if you don't know what you want to do, what do you want to explore?

Katie Giritlian [00:00:22] Yes! You're helping me see. Wait I have a question forming, but you're helping you see, this conversation is like, illuminating. Like. Like. Like the teaching that centers like mutual learning. And it's like it foregrounds the invitation and, like, it knows that invitation can be like. Like like. Like a little seed, a little small thing. Like, hey, you want to. You want to come here? Yeah. Up to, like, something so much larger.

Louis Bryant III [00:00:44] Right!

Katie Giritlian [00:00:45] Whereas like other. Maybe more formal modes that can be so indoctrinating or like imposing or so or so many other things that are so violent. And but the invitation, the role of the invitation.

Louis Bryant III [00:00:57] It's so cool in that sense. I love that. And again, it's just like if I have any opportunity to like just give a child or a young mind, even an adult, there are adults that come up to me say, I want to learn about photography, I will come to your house, or, you know, we will sit online and we'll look over the buttons together and test you and give you challenges and come back to me like I am always open to give in that sense, always and so. And then it's like not to talk about it, but like I still have students that taught me fifth and sixth grade that I stay in touch with now. That I've gotten cameras, I I've, you know, like, you know, written a couple of recommendations, but like most of the part, like I wasn't trying to steer them. They saw what I did and we worked together closely. And then now I have a bunch of budding photographers. One joined the Marines, and he's like, he wanted to travel and he saw his way of travel by joining the armed forces. And, and but he's like steered it directly to photography. I want to shoot for the for the for the service. And so I'm like, that's cool. Like you're going to travel to Japan or you get the travel to Germany, South Africa, and, you know, most people have weapons and yours will be a camera to tell. And I'm like, and tell the truth, please tell the truth with that camera and like and that's all I ask is like, just, you know, just be honest with your camera. Be it's it's a tool, but it's also it's a very powerful tool that, you know, we take for granted. And I always think of it as like, you're taking someone's picture. If you're taking something, what are you going to give back?

Katie Giritlian [00:02:33] Yes! Like that was my question. Okay, that's my other question. It's like, how? Oh, my god there's so many ways I want to go that I would love to like I'd love to like like what? Can you talk more about that that that relationship and like that? Like if you're going to take someone's picture, what are you going to give back? Like, what does that mean to Louis?

Louis Bryant III [00:02:51] Yeah. Oh, I, I well, I traveled on a three month gap trip with 17 to 21 year olds, and we went through three Latin American countries. We went to Dominican Republic, Costa Rica and Peru, and we stayed in a month in each country. And I did this once before and I did it. This is my second time, actually. No, I before the gap year, I would do summers in different places like Southeast Asia was my primary stomping grounds. And then I did West Africa and Ghana. But we so the program the premise of the program is high school students going on summer gap trips or summer trips that their high school students get, trips that they're older and, you know, have a experiential service learning trip. And it is really by curated by like I mean the organization is one thing and it speaks, but it's literally like, who is directing your trip is what you're going to get from your trip. And so, you know, it could be all fun and you go and like dig a trench and you don't even know the community members names. And then you go away and you're just like, Wow! Who did this benefit? Didn't even ask the trench. And so I would probe harder to be like, No, you need to no names or you need to, and I would lead by example. And so, you know, I'm taking pictures of services being performed by the students and sending pictures back for promotion, for Instagram, for families to see. Everybody's having fun and safe. But I also take pictures of community members because that was obviously even more my interest anyway I was doing work but I got to you know take on more of my personal work and you know, if I took that photo I carried, this is before, you know, like Polaroids became even more popular. And like the insta printers I had, like the very rudimentary printer that looked like the size of a hard drive. And I would take the picture and then within a few moments, if I could print it out on like a business card type thing, it would stick and give it to them and just or even the next day. So if we were like in a village and we were like in the fringe of Haiti when we're in DR and we're like in informal settlements and, you know, people very rarely ever come to visit these remote sites. And all these people do is cut sugarcane and live a life that's kind of in a gray area of like better than Haiti. But D.R. doesn't want to give us our recognition. So we're just like in this void and the joy from, you know, going, you know, like they were well received, well welcomed and warm. And then again, I'm taking photos and I was like, but, you know, we are providing this light, but like, you're going to leave and then, you know, the names will be forgotten, times will be gone. And I'll have all these pictures that I took and how do I get back to you? So like again, going in town, finding a printer, even if it's an eight by 11 sheet of paper, like I want to give you what beauty, what moment you gave me or allowed me to observe and then showing the students the same value in that, like, let's go together. You saw me when I was taking this. Let's go over there and and give it back to Manuel and his family. And like the joy of right was enormous and I go back like a two years later and see it on a wall still and so, you know, like that that was a memorable moment. And so it's just like it's very much in the sense of like it rubs me, right? I was in Peru on the same trip and watching other professional photographers unrelated to the trip come to Cusco and just like literally get like three inches away from a girl's face.

Katie Giritlian [00:06:29] It's awful.

Louis Bryant III [00:06:30] And just snapping photos of, you know, an indigenous people and never asking the name and then walking away and I'm like, Oh my God. And like, I get it. When I traveled to Morocco, I got stern looks, even though I'm a black person, to take pictures in Morocco because like, they're like, no, we're fed up with this because you're taking, taking, taking and all I know it's going to end up on a postcard or you're selling my face or all I know to end up on a blog and you're dismissing, you know, our culture or all I know it's going to, you know, misrepresent this. How how are you representing us with what you're taking? And, you know, like and for me, I was like, I'm different than everybody else, I promise. But like, you know, I have a camera. So to anybody is like, unless you warm up to me, you know, I kept my camera low and I would say, like, that was the least amount of pictures, even though it was the most photogenic society. I got to go Marrakech and I barely was taking pictures, but I enjoyed myself so much more from that experience of also learning like, you know, like even though this may be your plate, like you may see this as a playground, this is these are lives. And like I totally get from their perspective of why they have stern looks, why someone would, you know, put their finger up in my face or why someone would just like to, like, say no. Absolutely no, because there's been too many instances where the colonial and like, I'm going to take the give to the world mindset. Like, I'm taking this picture because we need to speak these truths. But like you're, you're taking it for yourself. You're taking it for your notoriety, for your publication, for whatever, but you're not taking it for them. And that's what it's about. Like, are you taking it? How are you taking like, I don't know. It's just take the name, take your photo. Like I would say it in Spanish. I'm like "puedo tucar tu foto" and it's like I don't want to take your photo. How do I say that better? I don't want to just take this from you because I want to give you something back. My smile, my name, something. And so.

Katie Giritlian [00:08:26] Oh, no. We're having an Internet clash.

Louis Bryant III [00:08:32] And so how. Uh oh. Oh, no. Did I lose service? No.

Pat McMahon [00:08:45] Thank you for your patience as we experience minor technical difficulties. Please enjoy this public service announcement from your friends at Converge Collaborative.

PSA [00:08:58] Are you familiar with the feeling when one or more of your extremities. Often after hours of little or no use, begins to feel tight. Have you ever experienced injury, pain, discomfort or general lethargy within your body? Re-Introducing: stretching! A natural and instinctive technique designed to enable your body for movement. What follows is a list of times that you can stretch: when you wake up. Before physical activity. After physical activity. At the end of a stressful day. If you're waiting in line and it doesn't seem like you'll be taking another step for at least 15 seconds. When you're getting ready for bed. Here's a list of things you can do while you stretch. Count to 15. Stare intently at some part of your surroundings you might not have otherwise fixated on. Listen to the radio. Listen to a podcast. Listen to this podcast. And now back to our show.

Louis Bryant III [00:10:04] Oh, wow it's good to be back. I know we had a tiny bit of technical difficulties, but, you know, as we had a little bit of break of trying to recover and reconnect, did have some time to think about crossover and and pathways. I know a lot of the discussion was on journeys and you know as people that have been educated one way or another, formally or informally, self teaching and I believe even as we evolve as creators, you're always teaching and learning anyway. But even as a formal designation, as a teacher and educator, like all these things kind of circumvented. And I'm just excited to learn more about that pathway of being like routes, of learning, whether it's the routes that you've learned yourself or the routes that you are teaching. Love to learn more about that perspective.

Katie Giritlian [00:10:58] Oh, yes, it's. It's such. I've been thinking about this so much and how many tensions there are. Like, if I were to create a drawing where I, where I showed each method for each. That represented a method. Sorry. Each method for each way that I'm teaching right now. In each context in which I'm teaching. They would all look so different. And I've been wrestling with this so, so much and so. I for context, a part of my teaching practice is that I don't know how much I went into this before, but is that I tutor. I help students who have different learning profiles and anxieties, like I support their work, so I am not the one in charge of the prompt that they're given. I'm there as an aid to help demystify the process as much as I can. And so in that context, it's wild because I'm working. I see the way in which their formal education is happening, and I have to be this like mediator between that formal education space and the student. And in my work, I try as hard as hard as possible to. Nurture a relationship that centers the student and that over time encourages them to learn and find language and identify their learning needs and how to advocate for them. But it's so interesting because I'm right in, in the lake and in that space of negotiation and and I've been talking to, to friends and collaborators and asking them how they how they, what their methods are for centering the students autonomy and and something I do in other classes that are have different ages or different ranges because I also teach. I teach photography classes at the International Center for Photography, and that's continuing. That can be any age, any person. And some of my friends who teach are also teaching in those kinds of contexts. So we'll always talk like, how do so how do we all do this? Like, how do we how do we center the students? What are our different methods for doing that? When when education, as we all know, as you and I both know, can historically be so fraught with the opposite, with imposition and control. And so so something that I've learned in my in other contexts that are more open and with publishing and with with with my collaborators and from my friends who are also doing this is, you know, are more open ways to do that. And one one example is, you know, that I've learned from my friend Johan is, is, you know, you ask this, you ask the student, okay, how do you define X? What's your definition of X, whatever the topic is. And you begin from their words and their thought world and you weave that into the fabric. But what I've noticed and I and I cherish that so much and I've learned so much from that, and I try to do that as much as possible. But what I've noticed as a tutor, because often I'm working with a high school through college age, you know, I'll ask a big question like that. And, and that question is so big that they'll feel intimidated by it and they'll be like, What? I don't I don't know what my definition of study is. And I'm like, yes, right that, that, this is not the context for that. And so I'll have to find these different ways that actually might look. Like. I've noticed that actually too, to center the student and to allow for the nurturing, for more autonomy, I have to bring in more structure for tutoring that then will allow the autonomy to open up. But it's been a learning curve because it feels uncomfortable to bring in so much structure, because I've been thought I've I've grown to think that structure is control. Which is not necessarily true. That's not necessarily true, which we all know. But that it's been so interesting to see the the different tools and the different methods that make sense for different contexts and for different learning styles and just how it requires flexibility. But the work of autonomy and learning requires so much listening and attunement and flexibility. And I wonder if that well first of all, if there's anything that you're you're interested in responding to, I want to hear it, but I wonder if that that tension resonates for you. Like how how to be flexible.

Louis Bryant III [00:15:52] And I mean, even I was just literally visualizing you walking around with a satchel and have a different type of color perspective or prism glasses. And each one is like, okay, this is how I'm going to help Angela and then this is how we're going to help Tommy. And these are how I help, you know, Raimo and each one, like, because you've gotten to that level of just like, well, they see with the kaleidoscope and they see with prism and they see, you know, ultraviolet rays and, you know, because. I think even then, that's that realm of education and, you know, institution and form. I mean, it is very formal. And and if you think about some of the, you know, human Macmillan books, you know, if I'm allowed to talk about them, but you know that I don't think many of the words have changed from when the fifties, when they first started publishing the book, they just had a couple of pages or two chapters as history is developing and it's all about the structure and the confines of like, you know, you should know these things by X amount of time. Like, so it is, I'm sure for a young learner or a learner in general, when they're behind constructs like that and then all of a sudden you just rip a veil over and say, So tell me what you think. You're like, Well, no, I'm I want you to tell me what you want me to think, because that's what I've been told all this time. That's what the frustration is anyway, cause I'm not hearing the way that you want me to think in the first place, that you're basically just saying, well, actually the power is in what you think and what you see, the perspective as and like that empowerment as an individual, as a learner is so, so great. So, I mean, so that's what I was like feeling when I read.

Katie Giritlian [00:17:43] Yes! That, everything you just said hit so hard. and wow the satchel really just like in my heart, because that is like exactly how it feels, I feel so sceen by that. But everything you just said really hit and like one, I think this is an interesting example? One one tool in the satchel I have found helps at least in the tutoring context. When I see how structured, when it's in service of empowering, the learner can work. And offer like degrees of autonomy is like, I'll do this thing where I'll make like we're working on an essay or we're working on an outline for an essay and, and, you know, we'll be, will be teasing out some of the ideas they're working through. And if the learner seems to be just intimidated or overwhelmed, I'll create a word bank, which I just has a bunch of words in it, and I'll create some sentence starters or some sentence possibilities like, all right, here are some here are some language costumes, which is also inspired from my friend Lai Yi like you can try these on and see how they fit, but please put them in, put them in your way. Like turn this into your your mode, but try them on, see how they feel, see how it fits. And that has been an interesting, interesting use of that. And I wonder if that recalls for you any specific methods that again, are using structure to, in-service of empowerment?

[00:19:10] Absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, you realize that you can't fight against it so much because just to a learner that may be so contradictory to, you know, their methods. But but yeah. I mean. Everything again, from illustrating various color pens and pencils that to like hierarchy of understanding of information and things that are, you know, subliminal and things that are supplemental and things that are very direct and things that are indirect. And so, yeah, it's and then it's just understanding that. Again. Which. Which tool that I need to pull out the bag to start having this relationship, this this education relationship. Because once I feel like it's disarming, once you do figure that out, the the learners kind of to say, oh, you get it. I didn't think people got like I got it. And, you know, and so that is also the joy in that is, is being able to connect in a way where they're just like, no, someone sees or hears me. And and and for maybe many years or classes that I was told I was wrong. I shouldn't be thinking about like this or this way. This approach is just completely wrong or even by my peers. And then for once, they are feeling heard and feeling like, well, all this time that I've been told that I'm wrong or that I need to pursue it this way, because that's how it's been prescribed. I've been right all along and it's like an aha moment and they want to do so much more with their brains, their minds and expand based off of that. And so it's, it's, it's, it's a beautiful thing. Um so my question is also in what you do and and you know. And I'm just assuming I'm going to say that, like when you talk about structure and it mean control and order. I know when I was in that, you know, I'd go to what is it called, Professional Development. I'd go to our after school meetings and, you know, all of a sudden someone would drop a packet and say, Well, this is how it's done now. This is how you need to write your lessons. This is how you need to collect information. This is how data needs. This is how we're going to test against teaching it a test. And, you know, it would make me cringe and just think like, I know, I know I would probably be the tiniest little pin of a percentage, but I can tell you all the stuff that you're giving me, I can make them learn better and not out of some cocky attitude on it, but it's just like, this is not how we connect, this is not how we're going to empower. That's not how we're going to build stronger minded individuals. And while I was in that phase, I did I mean, you know, I'm advocating as much as possible. But even that as a as a African-American male, you know, I'm working and we're going to Baltimore City, which is, you know, the hood. And you you see these things sometimes delivered to you. And sometimes it confuses me because I'm like, is this given for the control aspect? Because, you know, because people are far removed from the classroom, because money and budgets are important, because someone has a friend who published a new theory at their school so we're going to adopt it. Like that's you know, we know the bureaucracy is existing and it's and then it's like what? You know. So how do you navigate against those negatives of, you know, like the infiltration of, you know, the system and just doing its thing as a system?

Katie Giritlian [00:23:00] That is that is such a good question. And I think it's interesting because it's helping me see that. It's helping me. It's illuminating for me the different kinds of pushback. Again, the satchel in the satchel there's the tools, and there's also the different the different gestures of pushback and different contexts. And and with with the students because I'm not a teacher in their school and more just like this, like middle medium, a kind of mediator and support figure, it becomes it becomes about these, like, micro moments. Like when a student tells me that a teacher, like, confides in me, that a teacher dismissed their mode of note taking and they they I like I like invite them if if they're comfortable, then to show me their note taking and it'll be like beautiful and lovely and like. Like I try to amplify that and it's. But I recognize that that also takes time and trust for them to trust me. Or maybe they'll never trust me, which is understandable. But it's in those micro moments because of my specific role as a tutor that I use support and amplification. And exactly what you said like to listen to listen and hear them on their ideas and respond to that. That feels it feels like we're creating together like a micro pushback to whatever structure they might be receiving, but then there's like other processes too where, you know, whenever I'm teaching at ICP or even in, you know, my small press, Paper Cameras Press, which I don't know how much I went into before, but it's the mission is to develop and print photo curricula through the printed page. But it's very it's very critically. It's situated as a project that is, as you and I talked about so much at like last time, like that's like working against pushing back against the problems of photography and the white imperial parachuting in and that that legacy of photography. And so it's and each issue a will, we'll work with one or two authors and we'll, you know, together talk about what they're what their critical approaches and how they're pushing back against that legacy. And so that's like a different kind of pushback.

Louis Bryant III [00:25:30] Talk more about the press because I, I don't. There's always more to learn. And and just where did the seed even begin? Like, where was that seed dropped? And like now that I mean, the fact that you are where you are, I would say the seed is now a plant. It's receiving light and nurturing and love and and and it's growing. And, you know, I would love to be a leaf on one of your plants, because, you know, I've always been interested in publishing. So I you know, we will talk more about that. But.

Katie Giritlian [00:26:05] Yes we have so much to talk about. We have made a satchel together. And that we will refer to. No, I, it's such a good question. The seed. And I, someone asked me this before and I always stumble because I was like, I don't know if there's one thing, but it was just these different machines going on that I've been thinking about what a publishing allows, what photography allows, what self-determined education allows them together. They just like started stewing in a soup. And I was like, What about a press that prints photo curriculum that tries to center and one one seed too is like using. And it's is so inspired by a friend who was like playing with like paper cutouts and then also like the artist Luchessa and Corita Kent like using the paper viewfinder and like what happens, like what, what materiality can allow for or how can teach us different ways of seeing that maybe can. Let me restate that sentence. That was a little blurry. What happens when you put down the recording device for a moment and use a proper paper tool to almost mime a way of seeing and like act and like see through the cut out or see like a mirror. And and and exac. Exactly. Exactly. And then come back. We can come back to the camera. You can come back to the zoom recorder and just what does that allow? And so that's part of it, too. But but on that note, I would love to hear, well, whatever, if you want to respond to any of that, but also what in your satchel what some of your tools of pushback are?

Louis Bryant III [00:27:52] Yeah, it's very similar to the initiative of just wanting to get, like make empower storytellers in any form, whether they want to be poets and writers, creative writers or singers and dancers or photographers or filmmakers, how whatever in the medium is. But just encouraging that because the revolution is through art and, you know, and and that's that the stories will be told through the generations of through eons, through the decades. It's through the art, you know, like the policy could be made, but it's it's the visuals, it's the audi-. It like we go back and listen to speeches. We go back and look at cherish film, you know, like analog film and stuff. And if we leave that up to one type of person or one person specific type of person, we will get a very skewed and narrow and, and, and chopped up edited version of our story. So we need to empower our storytellers. And so, you know, as I was teaching sixth grade, fifth and sixth grade, I started Poetry Club because I was very much, very much into poetry. And every Wednesday or Thursday, we would meet after school for about 90 minutes and I'd give prompts and we'd perform. And at the end of the year, we'd have a showcase. Some students would publish their own little self, published their own books and and have their memories for the year. What they wrote. And I would hear the most profound thoughts from an 11 or 12 year old. The most I mean, you know, growing up in Baltimore, you would hear, you know, there's a lot of adult ification already happening and, you know, you're fast tracked into manhood or womanhood very, very quickly. And so the things that I always hear as mirrors through their words, mirrors and reflections of their environment and reflections of, you know, they didn't want to go home because they were having so much more relief just being in a classroom, writing more, you know, this is language arts class and you know, you're asking kids to write prompts and essays and this and that and then to stay after school and want to write more was a beautiful thing. And so just like that small bit, you know, we have I would encourage my fifth and sixth graders, but we'd have seventh and eighth graders come through. We'd have a third grader who would want to come through. And it was open for everybody. Go share your story. Tell your story. And and open your heart. And I, I saw that as like, again, like part of the revolution. Like they wrote about classes that they hate in my class. I hate language arts so much and, like, put it in there and put it in there. Like, I'm not going to be offended for, you know, like, what did social studies mean to you yesterday? Are you hated those essays in the standardized test? And so, you know, but that was my thing too was like, you know, there are times I don't need to read your things and I won't if you want me to read it, I will. And if you want to share it, you can. And I encourage you, because there's a different feeling that you get. And I would celebrate that when I know like little cafes and take them and allow them to, you know, publicly speak. And it's just that, again, it is like the for me was is like it's it's like a big a small cupcake for you. That's that. Or if I can bake a giant cake and give you the world, I would, but I can give you a small cupcake and I hope you enjoy it. And like, I felt like I was giving them small cupcakes that they cherished and were able to, like, enjoy. Even if it was just a segment of their teenage life. Maybe they had something to fall back on. Maybe they have memories that they will look back on and journals that they've saved, or maybe they've used it to propel them forward. But like that's just giving you some tools in your satchel because the world is what it is and you need to have some tools to equip yourselves to be. And so now I do that with cameras now and it's like I snack up a, I will snatch up a mentor mentee very quickly because if you say you have interest, I will find you a camera. I will help you learn every button and dial on that. And then, you know, you ask questions in inquire. I'll tell you how I got there. So I will help you try to get there too. And so my push back now is just like passing through the arts. Like, how can I like we know the construct of a 40 year old white guy, hairy arms is the photo photographer, Miss Black Sacramento. And he'd be, you know, like Delaney or he'd be like the Delaney College. And then he'd be down in, like, Oakland Tech High School and he'd be shooting the front news in West Oakland, and then he be shooting Mayor London Breed. And I think that's all the visual that it's stamped all over the place and it's like that doesn't need to happen and and then you even see that in one industry as an established photographer, you pitch it out there and you know, and you don't get bitter. But you do know that like, you know, your white male male counterpart could pitch one number and get one way. And then you say you get push back and struggle. They don't even, like measure you up to that status. So it's like, you know, let's get more of us in here. That's my push back. You know, like I could blog about the industry. I can blog about finances and trends and, you know, and maybe make YouTube videos and live Instagram and get a following based off of rhetoric and and firing people up. But I could silently just like, encourage the next 17 and 16 year old that like, you know, here's the best that I can give you and hopefully that will encourage you to want to pass that on. And here we are. You know, this is this is how we learn anyway, culturally, by passing on our our our skills and our traits and our stories. So, you know, like, yeah, I would love to start a school, but if I even if I'm just like nurturing a handful of people, you know, I'm playing that role or I want to play that role, you know?

Katie Giritlian [00:33:58] I feel like this is such. A like a beautiful note to close on a like like as you were talking with the cupcakes and I was like, oh, my God, yes. Like this small cupcake. It's a it's like giving it's like producing multiple small cupcakes so that the the be like you're giving them their satchel. And then it is just about passing on what you've been doing since from ever and.

Louis Bryant III [00:34:24] Yes.

Katie Giritlian [00:34:24] Oh the small cupcake!

Louis Bryant III [00:34:26] Yes!

Both [00:34:28] That yeilds abundance!

[00:34:31] When you see a child's eyes light up when you give them a cupcake, you're just like man like I don't know what that did to you inside but I could see right on your face how happy you are. Like that's what you want to just multiply. I want to give you a cupcake, I wanna give you a cupcake, you know...

Pat McMahon [00:34:46] Bring Your Full Self is put together through the collective effort of the members of Converge Collaborative. Special thanks today to Katie and Louis and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group, our work, or we'd just like to say hi. You can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative dot com or on Instagram at Converge Collaborative. We leave you today with some words of wisdom from our very own Louis Bryant III.

Louis Bryant III [00:35:14] The general purpose of existence, I think, is love. That's what we use to, you know, encourage our youth and our generations and our peers and our culture sphere and our cohorts is love. You know, if you teach with that, if you are passionate about it, whether it is just I love audio mixing and you love it so much, people will feel that love, you know? So it doesn't always have to be like I am delivering it, but it's just like you're you are delivering it, but you don't have to deliver it to someone or something. It could just be in the things, in the ways that you touch it.