Transcript for S1E5

Pat McMahon [00:00:00] Yeah how do we, how do we begin?

David Rios [00:00:03] Goats.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:05] Goats. I love goats. What do you think goats represents or what's the deal with the goats?

Pat McMahon [00:00:14] Hey everybody, I'm Pat McMahon. We are here to introduce another episode of Converge Collaborative's podcast, Bring Your Full Self. A very exciting roundtable episode.

Speaker 3 [00:00:27] Hi, everyone. I'm Amy Yoshitsu. Thanks, Pat, for that introduction to why we're all here. This is, as you said, our first roundtable episode. In light of Converge's interest in experimentation, media, art, labor and collaboration, we're going to discuss the first season of Severance, a show that talks all about those topics, which is streaming on Apple TV+. I didn't even realize it was Apple TV+, thanks for adding that in. This conversation will discuss the whole first season, so there'll be lots of spoilers everyone. So please watch the show before you listen or just enjoy our conversation.

Pat McMahon [00:01:05] Awesome. Yeah, Amy in our weekly one on ones, we often are talking to one another about the different shows or podcasts or books that we've been consuming. And I distinctly remember kind of early on in our in the building of Converge, you had presented a really enthusiastic recommendation for this show Severance, both because it was a really compelling show, produced, well acted, but also because it's a really good companion for the ideas that we're holding here and converge and what we're trying to build.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:01:37] Absolutely. I'm so excited about this. This is our first conversation about a creation, a media, a piece of art that relates to the themes of Converge. And we're especially interested in the emotional implications of bifurcating your consciousness to separate your work and personal life. We get into ideas of race, gender, being a creative person and artist, reproduction, and the relationships between capitalism, authoritarianism and hierarchy in labor and in religion. We analyze the show and use it as a jumping off point to share our own views and experiences. So in case we haven't talked about before, the name of this podcast, as you said at the top, is Bring Your Full Self. And this came from the idea of inviting people to be their full selves as much as possible in their labor contexts. We thought Severance, the literal antithesis of this idea would be a perfect topic to start our roundtable episode series with.

Pat McMahon [00:02:29] As you mentioned, the show is based very literally around this separation of of work and non-work selves. But I really like the way that in a roundtable environment, the conversation between you, myself and another member of Converge, Rios. Through this conversation, we uncovered the ways that things like identity, family, authority, reward systems, fear, all of those things play both into the show as themes and concepts, but also into our experiences of work. I really love the way that the threads of theme and topic throughout the show really tie back in. And we all had a lot to add in terms of our experiences and our thoughts around this concept. One of the most rewarding things for me about being a part of Converge is the way that we all learn from each other, particularly I'll speak personally the way that I learned from you all about how to articulate and express feelings that we share that we may not all have, and I speak for myself, I definitely don't always have the language for. I think that this episode and conversation is a really vibrant example of the way that we all come together and the parts of the sum are greater than the whole. So with that, I'm very excited to introduce this episode, which is a conversation between myself, Amy Yoshitsu and David Rios.

Pat McMahon [00:03:53] How do we begin?

David Rios [00:03:56] Goats. Goats?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:03:59] I love goats.

David Rios [00:04:01] Sorry, that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:04:02] No. What do you. What do you think goats represents or what's the deal with the goats?

David Rios [00:04:07] I don't know that that's one of those things that I was thinking a lot about and think what is up with the goats? And it kind of just made me think about like how? Like, what the fuck does this company actually do? You know.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:04:20] Yes. What do you think they do?

David Rios [00:04:24] I don't know. I mean, I really. They get almost like. You know, I could see it like. In terms of like storytelling and making an actual television show. I could see it being something like crazy, insidious, like sci fi, you know, whatever. But in terms of just being a critique of work, like it kind of doesn't matter what they do, right? Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:04:47] I think that's a great point. Yeah.

David Rios [00:04:48] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:04:50] Well, I thought the company was a pharmaceutical company, right thats what they're known for the greater company. And so the question is, what is this, like what is the work they're doing? And are they actually doing work that is serving any function on the computer? Or is this purely as like a human experiment in the way that somehow the goats are a human experiment? Like the good thing that made me think more that it was like they're experimenting on all types of beings. Also goatss representing the devil. I don't know. That was like also like I don't know where that fits in.

Pat McMahon [00:05:19] That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it as like a social experiment until I saw the notes that you had taken. I think that that's a really interesting prospect because yeah, Rios, I agree with you. Like it's sort of a situation where it feels like the work doesn't matter. I thought we were going to get some resolution towards like specifically what the work was, as though that was like the that seemed like the mystery that was going to be solved at the end of the season. And and I feel like not getting really any insight into that hammers home both of those points: that the work doesn't really matter quite as much potentially, and that Amy, maybe it's you know maybe they're just testing out how different people or, different living things react to different scenarios.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:06:13] Yes. And is breeding a main thing here? Because this is the other thing about the woman, the senator's wife, who is doing the process to have a child. And I guess in the goat thing, they're breeding goats like they're all babies, right?

Pat McMahon [00:06:29] The goats were babies? Yeah, I think so.

David Rios [00:06:31] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:06:32] So there's something about, like, actual eugenics. I don't know. I also like whether it's about, like, nurture versus nature, like something about, like human population, like like, oh, this is way bigger than just work, but they're intertwined.

Pat McMahon [00:06:56] Like those those four pillars, Amy, that you were talking about work, race, identity. What was the fourth one? There was another big piece.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:07:04] Art.

Pat McMahon [00:07:05] And art. Art. That's such an interesting. Yeah. So those four. Those four kind of components of the show. I feel like overlap really well with the things that we're working on within Converge. Yeah. So this sort of felt like a no brainer in terms of a show to discuss and get everybody's thoughts about.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:07:28] Yeah, I agree. I especially for me the basis of it being Severance and the idea of bifurcating your life based on work. And I think our goal here is to be more acknowledge, to acknowledge more that it's impossible and that we can't live that a life of separation. And I find it interesting how in this show, how they identified the different reasons why people would want to separate their life and that those are all intertwined with emotions and somewhat identity, maybe. And talking about like a kind of a commentary on our current state of like why do people get into full time jobs, especially ones that are more like middle management or numbers pushing? I mean, this is like literally numbers pushing in a digital manner.

Pat McMahon [00:08:19] Yeah, I think that's a I think that's a great point. Um, you know, the, the work life balance kind of being like a very key component to to like what the themes of this show are like all built around, I think is it's like a very interesting play on that concept of like how do you work and live simultaneously? Like, one solution is a total, total split of those two lives. I think that one of the things that I was looking at your notes and you were talking about how, you know, Ms. Cobel, Patricia Arquette's character, you know, when she's like, one thing that I was thinking of was how even though she's a person who is not severed, she is literally a different person outside of work. Like she portrays like a different role.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:09:17] And she has a different name.

Pat McMahon [00:09:18] Exactly. Yeah. She's like entirely a different person. So even when you don't go in this drastic split, we are not the same people. We are at work. When we're not at work, you know, we present differently to the people that we live around. You know, obviously it's a little more insidious in her in like what she's doing. But I thought that that was an interesting piece that like even the folks that are not participating in this split of your psyche are behaving in totally different ways outside of that office.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:09:54] Mmhmm.

David Rios [00:09:56] Yeah. I mean it also kind of like the within the show, right? Like the reason why they're not severed is because there's this, like, surveillance aspect of it, right? Like, even when they're not at work, they're working because they're like, she's keeping track of Mark S. and all the other people and making sure like, she knows what the media is saying and all that stuff. And I think there's an analog there too and a lot of, and a lot of workplace structures were like the higher up you go, the more it just becomes ingrained into your life. You know, like this idea that like CEO grinding 24/7, like I live, my work, that kind of stuff. So maybe not necessarily purely from like of surveillance or that kind of insidious aspect, but the idea that like the corporation or the company is your identity and it is your life. Like, there's I mean, I feel like there's something there.

Pat McMahon [00:10:57] Yeah, absolutely. I think that there are so many different examples and even as we're starting to talk about it, like different things are jumping into my mind about like, you know, the double meaning of so much of the show. There's like, you know, there's like an extra there's a a layered component and like a yeah, sort of a dual meaning to to just about everything. When I really start to think about it, I think this show layers in so many. So many bits of. Information that I can't necessarily identify as why they're important or what they're alluding to. But it feels like there's a lot of allusions to to various stuff. Yeah. I guess one of the things that really stands out to me after what we were talking about there really is like you're, you're talking about like, as as you get higher up in in those in those corporate structures kind of the the way that you become the company that you're working for, I think, is really exemplified in the conversations that Patricia Arquette character has with the board, how the board is like a faceless, voiceless box that that serves as the authority. And that there's like really no no communication with the authority positions except through an intermediary, you know, like somebody comes down and. I don't know. I think that peace a little bit ties in to the, as you ascend, the idea of as you ascend, you lose yourself to the, to the group think.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:12:46] Yeah. And and it's, it's, you know, just as you're saying that it's, it's it's also like, you know, the investment is there, right? Like theoretically all the severed folks could just stop pushing and unsever or like, you know, the the drones, the whatever lower level folks and but like, you know, actually in a weird way, like, uh, that character Milchick, all the people who have the conscious to ality, right. Like they. They like, they feel more tied to the to the company in a way that like like. What am I trying to articulate? There's like a vulnerability and stakes that are different at that level because they're so invested. You know, like she freaks out when she gets fired and she is like, in a way more impacted by the fact that her voice carries no weight with, with the board. Right. Because it's like. You know, like she's ascended to a point where she should have agency, but, like, actually, she doesn't.

Pat McMahon [00:13:54] That's such a great point. Yeah, I love that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:13:56] Because her work self dictates her home self to a certain degree, as opposed to in the drones case, they just live blissfully separated. So.

Pat McMahon [00:14:07] Yeah, exactly. Yes. She has made both sides of her herself prioritized by by work. So her her reaction to losing that is much more severe. Um, whereas the severed employees are trying to, you know, link those two. There's probably something to be said also about the fact that like you can't, you can't disassociate those two aspects and you can't put everything into one. You really have to be able to like find the balance or like prioritize the life part. Much more over so than that work part.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:14:51] I wonder if the second season they're going to show more of her motivation, right? Because they do show that she has an altar to Kier in her house. So there's I, I also think about how this relates to the severance from interpersonal relationships and personal relationships. Like there must be some personal, emotional reason she's so obsessed with doing well or like carrying out this plan as opposed to just being in the position she's in. Because, I mean, I don't know. We don't able to see other people who are in a similar position to her. But she's obviously so deeply invested. And I would assume it's for personal, emotional reasons.

Pat McMahon [00:15:29] Yeah. I think I think the notes that you would take in kind of calling out the religious aspect of of both work and like the religious themes in the show, I think that's probably the biggest example of someone, you know, outside of the the physical like building of Lumon, having that kind of deified relationship to to the CEO and founder. Because Irving has that inside. And it's clear that that's a part of like what they're pushing and selling for the employees to buy into. Also, your remarks in the notes about the handbook as like a biblical text, you know, very, very like Ten Commandments type language. It's interesting. It'll be interesting in the second season to see if we get context not only for Cobel and like why she is invested in that way, but like context for Lumon, kind of globally. You know, it seems like a huge company with such a huge legacy. I'm curious what other people's thoughts of the company are at a larger scale. I think that's going to tie in to like the congressional aspect as well.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:16:48] And the fact they're protests, I think that ties into the religious aspects. I mean, also, I guess there are protests of corporations, too, but the idea that there's like movements built against something. It shows how it has a cultural significance.

David Rios [00:17:04] Yeah. I mean, it's, it's I could see it a bunch of different ways, honestly. Like the, you know, I kind of liken it to like Steve Jobs or something like or Elon Musk, you know, like space X, Apple, like the way these sort of like corporations foster this like zealous, like relationships with their consumers. And probably their employees to write like that, that people buy in in this way, that's, like, doesn't seem, like, purely logical or economically based. Right. And I could see it being a pharmaceutical company, too. Right. Because because they are having social impact on, like, a science level and a cultural level, you know?

Pat McMahon [00:17:55] Yeah. I think the I think the irrationality of, you know, maybe cult of personality or or like that really strong like bond that you're talking about. I think it also plays really heavily into the ideas around like work family, which is so clearly like a huge piece of this show. Like, you know, the company being founded and kind of CEO leadership passed down through the family. And then the fact that Helly is a family member like the that reveal really spoke to me in terms of like all of the corporate messaging that I've received as a as an employee about how like, yeah, we're part of the X, Y, Z agency family and just how that kind of language is meant to make you decide less for yourself as an individual and more for the organization, because it's it's as though everyone is bought into this. Everyone is sacrificing. But the sacrifices are coming from the people who are being convinced into that mindset, who benefit less from the overall success than the higher ups. Than the board. I'm curious, do you guys have any thoughts on the family aspect either in the show or have there ever been any instances, I guess, wherein you guys have experienced that kind of like family - "we operate as a family" sort of messaging from employers.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:19:36] I have. I definitely have. No, I think I think what's interesting about it is that it assumes that that's a positive thing. I think that there's a area it assumes a lot of things about family structure that I think speak to, like racial differences in family make up. I don't know. I'm interested to hear what you all think about this. Uh, there I have. I have heard that a lot. And, like, whenever I talk to my partner about it, we think it's funny because we have so many, like, conflicts in our family or often, like, I just watched Everything Everywhere All At Once last night. So I finally watched it and you know, it definitely I was at the end, I was just like Asian people have a lot of all the similar issues in their family. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Obviously, like, that's not true. But I mean, there is like this thing about like piety to your parents and a certain sense of loyalty that maybe there's more autonomy in, like the idea of a white American family sometimes and that like deep, deep guilt that is put in some other cultures in their family relationships. And so the idea of the family is very patriarchal in the sense, I think, and very this American Fordist patriarchal will take care of you. I think that's the message. Like you give us something, you give us your loyalty and we'll take care of you and it'll be benevolent as opposed to it will be fraught and like guilt ridden and like you'll feel so conflicted because like, why would you position as family. It's like you associated difficulty with family. So I think there's like a racial and cultural component in America, at least in the situation.

David Rios [00:21:18] Yeah, that's interesting because like. So I've never been given the, like, family line and in a workplace context. But but definitely like in some contexts, heavily implied and. And one of my previous jobs, like it was very much like we're not a family. Right. But but that actually, in a weird way, galvanized everybody else to want to get to know each other better, because it was like a small place where that was just like, like super toxic environment, just riddled with conflict everywhere that people felt. Maybe not family, but definitely like this, sort of like we're all suffering together kind of thing. So, you know, I think that more just speaks to like. The need, like the need to define some kind of community or relationship, like as humans, but especially the humans you're spending 8 hours a day with.

Pat McMahon [00:22:28] Totally. I think that shared sense of we're all suffering together is definitely the moments in which I've felt closest with coworkers, like recognizing, not being able to talk openly about like, Oh, this is actually a struggle. And the message that we're receiving from the people that manage us are, you know, they're trying to encourage and push and say, hey, you know, look at all these perks. We're going to have pizza in the office and and all these kind of things, you know, like the the like the the dance party in the show, like the little incentives, the things that keep you, keep you focused on short term goals are, I feel, meant to distract. And the times when I've felt the most solidarity within an office workplace have been when I can, you know, sidebar in a room mostly with other people of color. Like that's that's been such a crucial piece for having those conversations openly. The dialogs about like leadership is very homogenous. You know, there's a lot of white men in leadership and none of us look like them. And we feel. A little less bought into the the the paint coat, so to speak, you know, like a little bit a little less bought into the idea of like, all right, everybody's going to, you know, benefit from all of this extra hard work that we're putting in. So I think the the solidarity around no, this is actually really difficult. And like acknowledging the difficulty is is a big piece. I see that in the show too. Like when when they all start to recognize that, that they are being manipulated. I think Dylan was probably like a crucial part to that because he was the most bought into those small incentives. And then when he realized that there was something much greater, in his life in the form of fatherhood and having a kid, he realized how how meaningless the little distractions that they give him that he had super bought into actually were.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:24:48] And the same for Irving when his relationship was not allowed to continue then. And he was the most foreigner from a religious aspect, I'd say. Then that changed it for him. So I do think, yeah, the intersection of kind of like family formation and work is a topic here. Kinda going back to what I was saying before. But I don't want to stray us too much, but I am very interested in the idea of using severance to have children or to actually like literally build a family. And so that's something that I think is key to the underlying ideas of why they're theoretically doing the scientific experiment, in my view.

David Rios [00:25:30] I think I think that's definitely an undercurrent of the show. And like, I think it's tied to, you know, things, things we do see sort of like the legacy structures that we see, you know, in, in different corporations where where family takes up leadership positions or, you know, like in the case there's like a tie in with the senator or something like that. Like, yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:25:56] It's his children. I mean that's, I didn't even think of that theoretically those are his children that are being born. So it is about legacy and Helly is part of the legacy. And then like Mark S, the whole thing is about his relationship with his wife, which I would love to get into more. But yeah, every single person has something that's like about their family. A person in their family relates to why they're there or like rebelling.

Pat McMahon [00:26:19] Wow. That is that's such a great that's such a great point. Yeah. I didn't realize that each of the four characters in, uh, what's the department called MDR. Multi data refinement. Some. Microdata refinement.

David Rios [00:26:33] Microdata, yeah

David Rios [00:26:34] Microdata, yeah. Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:26:35] Microdata refinement. What a perfect like nothingness name for like, you know, it's just like jargon. But but yeah. Everybody in that. Everybody in that room has like a person. Yeah. The family is a huge motivator for each of those people.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:26:56] Which I think is a motivator for work. Anyway. Continue.

Pat McMahon [00:26:59] We haven't. I think Dylan is the only character we haven't seen sort of a maybe a motivation for why he had participated in Severance right?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:11] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:27:15] And was it is it Irving? Irving found like, he's a vet, right? I think that's the implication, is that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:24] He's a painter.

Pat McMahon [00:27:25] Well, he's a painter outside of like, in his in his time. But doesn't he open up a. Or his father was a veteran. One of the two. Right? He opens up a chest and finds like a military uniform.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:39] Yes.

Pat McMahon [00:27:39] And I couldn't remember if it was his or his father's. Probably not important.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:47] No, it probably is. I didn't realize that. I really want to talk about him and the idea of like being a painter. But if he has PTSD, because I'm wondering, like, are his paintings pictures of. Now I'm thinking, is it about war and PTSD or is it about he's painting, the company he's painting, his experience of being in a black hole and.

Pat McMahon [00:28:08] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:28:08] And then like there's just that thing where he's in the office and he sees all the black paint oozing down. And I didn't understand what that was until the second watch. And I don't know, like now that he's brought up veteran, like if he's a recent veteran, it could be going to like Iraq and like oil and black paint. I'm I'm putting that all together right now.

Pat McMahon [00:28:31] Though. Totally. There was a moment on my rewatch where and it's just like it's just like a silent little, like, cutaway. But they're sitting in the office and Irving is looking at his nails and he realizes that he's got, like, charcoal under his nails and he's kind of picking at it, curiously. That aspect of like, I really like the way they've been able to demonstrate that the severed employees still bring in with them the physicality of whatever they've they've done in their time off. You know, when they would say, like when Petey says to Mark, like, I can tell you've been crying. Like we could tell you been crying. Or like when Mark's saying to Helly, he like, you know, you're not going to actually feel sleep, but you'll be able to tell that you've had a good night's rest, you know, that kind of thing of taking in everything that you do outside of work. Consciously or unconsciously, I think is is crucial. I do like the angle of Irving's paintings, like tying into the the vision that he sees when he's at the office and that overwhelm. One thing that you wrote in here, Amy, that I think is really, really interesting is around the the use and kind of manipulation of emotion, particularly the asking for a handshake when Mark has done something well.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:30:11] Oh, yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:30:13] And the very the very formal. Would you like a handshake? You're going to have to...

Amy Yoshitsu [00:30:17] You can request one. Sorry.

Pat McMahon [00:30:20] No, exactly. I just think the the like the how did you put it? The corporatization of human interaction. You know, the making your eyes kind, all of these pieces as performance for, you know, performance for success or like performance of. Kind of. A human interaction as like a little reward given out, you know?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:30:50] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I was thinking about that and then thinking about us talking a lot about the company as a family structure and just like. Do those two things align? Are those two things contradictory? I don't know. And then also thinking about that in relationship to the break room, I'm very interested in the break room and this idea of breaking people, I guess breaking their will or breaking their spirit. And just from like a technical query of what you think, do like what's the point at which like you can never really I don't know, you can tell me what you think, change someone's mind. Like even if they say this, I guess it's relating to torture. That, like confessions and. And they supposedly have some kind of like a lie detector machine, etc.. But like, even if she says it 17 times versus 1700 times, is it saying that it's registering her exhaustion or that she's truly sorry? Because she doesn't like change her opinion of wanting to get out of there after she's, quote, in the break room. I don't know. I guess, like now that you brought up that he's a veteran, I see much more relationships to war now.

Pat McMahon [00:32:10] I will say I did not make the connection of the break room and like reaching a breaking point until just now. I really love this discussion because I'm like I'm like we've each kind of like each of our minds is like open up to a different particular thing.

David Rios [00:32:25] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where I stand on it. I mean, I think there's definitely. The break room is is I mean, it is a torture chamber. Like I said, part of me was just thinking like, oh. Like, what if they don't even measure it? Like, what if. What if they just pretend to, you know? Like, what if that's just. It is the tactic, and it does. That also doesn't matter, you know?

Pat McMahon [00:32:55] Yeah. This idea of it as an extended social experiment, I feel like is is picking up evidence and picking up steam in my mind.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:33:06] Yeah. They're definitely one of the key evidence of it being a social experiment is the fact that they have kind of going to art that painting. Right. That's of what but they have a painting where each department is basically horrible devil creatures right there destroying the company. And so there's clear manipulation that they're trying to keep departments away and put them against each other. And it's just interesting, like the use of art and the has these two men like have a romance because of their interest in art? Like there is this like and then also the fact that Petey's daughter is a punk singer. Like there is an interesting overlap of, like, different artistic forms.

Pat McMahon [00:33:48] Yeah, absolutely. I'll throw one more in there. When? When Mark is having his wellness session, he sculpts a tree.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:33:58] Oh yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:34:00] I actually had to like in reading a recap, I had to kind of piece together what was happening in this, but. I believe he piece together or he sorry. He sculpted the tree. That was related to the car crash that his wife was in. I believe that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:34:18] Oh!

[00:34:19] Like he visits a tree kind of in a quiet moment at some point at night. And and I think that was the same tree that he then sculpts when he's in that session. So it's an interesting thought on like how deeply are the things in their minds buried? You know, what does it take to kind of bring those things out? I don't know. And as it relates to art, like. You know, from if we look at it from one side, Mark is severed on the inside and sculpting something that his brain knows from the outside. And then on the outside Irving is doing is painting my interpretation of his his because he's painting like a black door. My assumption was that he was painting the break room, like the view of walking to the break room. So, like, maybe maybe obsessed with and unable to identify what that thing is. So that the on either side of severance, art is bringing out, the kind of buried trauma of of what's happening on the other side.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:35:35] I love that. I'm giving Rios time to think.

David Rios [00:35:39] No, I agree with that. I mean, like, it's, you know, they they definitely set up that duality really nicely. And with respect to the break room, it plays into. I don't know, I feel like it plays into this idea of like tapping some kind of subconscious or monitoring a subconscious, like the fact that it's his wife and that, you know. Yeah. The rewards they get from it and the sort of like, you know, this idea that, like. To placate, like in Mark's case, they took to sort of. To sort of bring Mark back into the fold of the company. They refer to things he can't know as a severed person, like on the outside, your, you know, your caring person, your your outie loves, whatever, you know, like that type of talk it. I didn't really click into this till we started talking, but all of that just makes me think it's it's again, like just part of part of the greater experiment on the human mind.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:36:50] Yeah. I mean, they're really I'm interested as to why they're so focused in on him, or especially Ms. Cobel is so focused in on him, like trying to see his interactions with his wife. Like they're really trying to see if, like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind comes to be and they're like deeply in love and they're going to show that that overcomes this procedure or they're afraid of that or whatever. But I do want to talk about the wife, just like from like a racial and gender point of view or her being the only Asian person and Asian femme and the person who has the least agency, the person who's like has to die in the regular world to exist purely as like an experimental tactic, I think in relationship to the main character as a white man. And like, I like, just like that really was very striking. And just like for me also always see whenever I watch anything, I always seeing like, you know, how they put different characters of different races in different positions. And, you know, there is. It was just depressing. And I, I hope that there is she's going to have agency or she's going to like actually have a reason to exist other than just as it's like super passive, essential like robot. Who also like her only role in the show is to give care to people.

Pat McMahon [00:38:05] Yeah, that was a piece that I noticed as well as the caregiving piece that that this character is an Asian woman and tasked with like. Being the only representation of like gentleness, like from a, from a, an employed standpoint. Or from, you know, from like an oversight. She's sort of in a position of authority, but not really because they're able to like dupe her very easily. That also feels like, you know, that was also, like a sort of complicated thing. Um. Whether it was like a level it felt like a level of incompetence or simplicity of like, oh. You know, this person can be easily sent away. Um, yeah. And the fact that she only exists in that. In that. Because presumably she's severed as well.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:39:01] Um hmm.

Pat McMahon [00:39:03] But. But perhaps not. I really don't understand what's going on with. With her character. I would really hope that. And I would imagine that a lot of the next season might focus on her. I think that this season ended with Mark saying she's alive. Right. That was how it ended? In reference to her.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:39:22] Yes. But then it also ended with them like essentially kind of killing her or whatever that is like not killing her, but like putting her to sleep in some way. Like.

Pat McMahon [00:39:31] Oh, yes, I forgot about that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:39:33] She got fired.

Pat McMahon [00:39:33] Yeah, yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:39:34] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:39:36] I forgot that. Yeah. That's terrifying.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:39:40] And then similar to what you're saying, Rio's about like, say, like the what? The person who's like, the orchestrator of everyone is like, you know, in the regular world you're happy or something like telling her to placate her death in this world that like her outie is okay in some way. So then that made me think all the things they say about everyone outside are a lie.

Pat McMahon [00:40:01] Oh, totally. Yeah, I. I also recognized that in those wellness sessions, they're just saying things that. Yeah. Which feels so manipulative. You know, it's. It's manipulation from. From your employer. And, like, convincing you. Convincing you that you do have a good life outside. Regardless of whether or not that's actually the case. That resonated a little bit.

David Rios [00:40:30] I'm still stuck on what her role is like. Yeah. I don't know if this is going to further the conversation, but I'm like, the big question for season two for me is like. It's literally the one character who has no outies or presumably has no outie and pretty much no agency within the company either. I think from the beginning she's to first it's just a neutral and then maybe like around the third or fourth episode, we get a sense that she's unhappy with her job but still doing it. And then we kind of get insight into like what the dynamics are that create that role. I think there's one seems like passing mark in the hallway and crying with, you know, why? You know, Oh. Yeah. I mean this. Yeah. Like I. Yeah. I haven't been reading any theories online or anything, so I have I don't know.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:41:34] Me either.

David Rios [00:41:35] I don't know what people are saying about it. But but I think the fact that there is you know, it is the only Asian woman who who is also in this like very specific like detached and like muted role that I don't know. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of things that could be really deep there or like, you know, my cynical take on most media is just like, what if they just fucking didn't pay attention?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:05] Absolutely no, they didn't pay attention. Or they just like it is subconscious to them that this is the appropriate role for someone who looks like that.

David Rios [00:42:16] Right.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:18] Yeah. Well, given that, I also think about how his love interest they did. I wonder who knows if they made a conscious choice to be like you're three love interests or a black woman, an Asian woman and a white woman? And if they purposely are like trying to create this diversity love in your circle around this white guy,.

Pat McMahon [00:42:36] Huh, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but that's a great point.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:43] And how one of them, like the black woman, he is using her in some ways more than he's, like, truly in love with her.

Pat McMahon [00:42:49] Mm hmm.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:42:50] And the white woman? I don't know. It's more of like they're more equal in power. I don't know. No, she's a subordinate, but they're also like a teammate.

Pat McMahon [00:42:59] Exactly. They're gether, right? They're together and. And they share the perspective right there. Yeah. They're both in the same boat. And I think it's, like, very clear that Mark's relationships with his own wife and also the woman that he's choosing to date in real life, like the choices that he's making are are bringing him to people that the show is in some ways demonstrating how little he has in common with. Whereas, like. Like. And. And it's an interesting thing, too, that, like. His interactions with his wife while like, not in that relationship dynamics are so void of emotion, you know, she tells him he can't react to the things that she says. And then we see him have this like really, you know, cute TV office romance dynamic with Helly R despite the fact that you know she like despite that the circumstances of overwhelming overwhelmingly hating the thing in the place that you're in. Like the two of them are finding love.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:44:11] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:44:12] You know, like, that's an interesting that's an interesting commentary to look at.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:44:18] Did you see that coming like that? They were going to, like, kiss.

Pat McMahon [00:44:21] Totally.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:44:23] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:44:24] I was really hoping that they wouldn't.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:44:26] Me too.

Pat McMahon [00:44:26] I was hoping to go in that direction. Because it was, you know, when she attempted suicide, I thought it was really the care that his character showed for her, I thought was really sweet and the way that he's, like, constantly trying to like he took one, too. You went to the break room on her behalf. You know, he's really looking out for her. And I wanted that to be based around a solidarity, not a romance.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:44:51] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:44:54] So that was a little that was a little disappointing, but it makes sense from a TTV perspective. I think they. I don't know. That seems like a trope, you know?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:45:04] Yeah, I agree.

Pat McMahon [00:45:05] Very, very Jim and Pam.

David Rios [00:45:09] Yes. High jinks in the office.

Pat McMahon [00:45:15] I also think it's interesting that the other two men. Like Helly's the only woman in the office. And the other two men. One is gay and one is, you know, Dylan is not at all presented as like a romantic or sexual person. You know, he's kind of like he's like an overweight guy. He's balding and he's focused on, like, finger traps, you know what I mean?

Pat McMahon [00:45:44] And he's the only person of color.

Pat McMahon [00:45:45] Exactly. Yeah. So. So that the two the two people and less the two men in the room in less kind of white patriarchal positions are just seen as like, of course, they're going to be the office buddies of, you know, there is no romantic underlying romance between Helly and these two people. So it it's so clear that the underlying romance would be between the beautiful female lead and the handsome male lead, you know?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:46:17] Mm hmm.

Pat McMahon [00:46:19] Both of whom are white.

David Rios [00:46:21] Yeah, right. Well, Dylan, I think, also has this added layer of like, because he's I mean, I know we don't we don't learn what what a Waffle Party - Waffle Party? We don't learn, we don't learn what it is till later.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:46:36] Oh, right. Yeah.

David Rios [00:46:37] But and and it's sexual and but I think leading up to that, like, the fact that Dylan is more of like the comedic and, you know, he's fat and he's kind of off to the side and he's making finger trap. Like there's a level of sort of like, oh, he's like the goofy kind of like we don't no one says he's pervy, but he probably is, right? Like, you know, he seems like the guy most likely to make a dick joke or a fart joke or something, right? Like. Like, I think that is kind of a trope as well. Or at least in this case, it serves to kind of, you know, undermine that that that undermines the idea that, like, maybe he could also be, like, a romantic interest in or, you know. Mm hmm. But I do think I don't think he's, like, totally desexualized. I just think it's like that more of that, like, oh, we can't take him seriously.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:47:39] Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with the waffle, I didn't even think about it. I didn't the Waffle Party thing. But yeah, that he has to he has to like, quote, pay for a sexual experience in some way.

David Rios [00:47:49] Right. And he's done it multiple times. Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:47:53] And it's his favorite thing. That's what he looks most forward to.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:47:56] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:47:58] Yeah. I really liked the the fact that Dillon's perspective changed once he realized what was outside. I think that, like, the fact that he and Irving are the examples of two different angles you can take. You can really buy into it, or you can, you know, the angles you can take towards work. You can really buy in and understand, or believe that you are an integral part to a giant mission. Or you can be motivated by the little perks that they throw out at you. And that both of those things are undermined when you know there is something more important. A relationship with another person being enough to break you out of those cycles, I think is really a pretty one kind of one of the themes or like the underlying moments that really resonated most with me.

David Rios [00:48:59] Yeah. And I think just to add to that, it's it's not just about. Fuck. What did you just say? I think it also speaks to not just the perks of of, not just the structure of the company, but something. Something about like. You know, like all of those, like when presented with something that's truer to your actual self. Like the thing that you can't sever. Like that's when everything breaks.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:49:26] Mm hmm.

Pat McMahon [00:49:29] That's that's really interesting. I actually I was just looking down at my notes. And one thing that jumped out to me with respect to the break room and again on a rewatch, some of these things make a little bit more sense. But when Helly comes back from the break room, she and Dylan are sitting kind of off to the side and she's like, What was the deal with the mumbling man? Like, Did you hear the mumbling man in the background? Like, what was that about? And Dylan says, Oh no. When I'm in the break room, I hear a crying baby. So so some aspect of the break room, maybe subconsciously tapping into the to the aspect of severance. You know, I'm curious. So the mumbling man for Helly, I assume, is her father or her grandfather, whoever that guy is to her.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:50:24] Right.

Pat McMahon [00:50:25] And then the thought I just had. With Dylan. Was a crying baby. The kid that we see him with is like a toddler, a little bit older, but certainly still at crying age. But I wonder whether or not Dylan, like, lost a child and that's why he's severing himself or some some difficulty with his his children or his child. You know, just totally speculating. But but I recall that as being a piece where on a rewatch in the moment it does it feels throwaway, you know. And then when you watch it again and, you know, all of the loose ends that get tied up later, it's nice to, like, realize almost nothing seems to be throwaway in this show.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:51:12] Mm hmm.

Pat McMahon [00:51:14] And that that actually leads me to another question that I, I wanted to ask you guys about. So. In in the episode with the dinner party where Mark is over, or the lack of dinner party where they're feasting on ideas. Someone in someone mentions that Mark's wife was a professor of Russian literature. And I'm just curious if either of you guys know, like, is there like a famous Russian novel that, like, goes into these concepts or, like, could tie in? I could see that being a piece that they're setting up. You know.

David Rios [00:51:56] I'm not a lit guy.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:52:00] Dostoyevsky is the first thing that comes to mind.

David Rios [00:52:02] Yeah, crime and punishment.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:52:06] Crime and punishment.

David Rios [00:52:06] I haven't read it, though.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:52:09] Me either, no.

Pat McMahon [00:52:13] But yeah, crime and Punishment. I mean, I think just you guys knowing that right there is like enough for me to be like, okay, yeah, that's probably going to come up, you know?

David Rios [00:52:23] Yeah. I mean, you know, if I. If I had to do like. Like a research base kind of like that is definitely a threat I would look into. Like if I wanted to predict what I could turn into. I would like I would go into Russian lit just to see like, oh, they, are they trying to pull out stuff here? It would be like Russian lit the pharmaceutical industry and like, you know, late breaking or like experimental human psychology, right? Like what the fuck are they trying to get at here with some of this stuff?

Pat McMahon [00:52:59] Totally.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:53:00] I did not catch that. Yeah, that's a total that's definitely a valid thread. Interesting.

David Rios [00:53:07] Literature in general in this, you know, speaking to like the art thing. Like, not to not to deviate too much, but like, you know, we were talking about. Visual art, just like painting before. But there's, like, the whole thing with the brother in law and, like. Yeah. Yeah. The idea of, like, subversive, subversive texts and ideas and can't bring this, you know, there's there's a lot of sort of like how to how to position things as propaganda or what's like legitimate text within or without inside or outside of the company. And the brother just I just love I love that guy. It's such, such a doofus.

Pat McMahon [00:53:51] He shows up and stuff and basically is that and like everything I've seen him in.

David Rios [00:53:55] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:53:56] I like the I like the way that his, his insights were like I actually found like the one Marx reading. It's like a montage of him reading the quotes. I thought they were all like played as very silly, but they were they were very profound when you think about them from a brain where someone's never read anything else before. Like, they're, they're silly in their simplicity and they're like kind of goofy analogies, but they really resonate with someone who's kind of got a blank slate, you know?

David Rios [00:54:31] A blank slate. And in a world where everything's pretty binary.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:54:36] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Pat McMahon [00:54:38] Yeah. It creates more nuance. Right. So, like a lot of the different things, I think one of the things that he that the brother in law's book says is, um, your job needs you more than you need it. Something to that extent, right? Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:54:56] Yeah. I'm trying to think about the I mean, I think capitalism is generally a theme and underlying thing, but like there's this assumption about they have to have a job, whereas the brother has a job that I don't know if he's making any money and I don't know what the sister does for a living. And I don't know what the deal is with this town, this like part company town and part not company town. And also like, I mean, Ford. Fordism being in Michigan. And this idea of like the great the like white supremacist idea of the Great North, like, it's all it's a coal town. I don't know what's the deal with that? Like, just I know that that's not a question, but I've been trying to grapple with the specificity of, like, capitalism and needing economic survival, which is never really directly addressed. Like it's just assumed everyone has a job, kind of. And then they live in a place that is unclear, that, like, people have a feeling about Lumon. Like, everyone knows the name Lumon, but not everyone works there. Yeah, like even when you talked about the from the consumer perspective, we didn't hear anyone who's like, I buy Lumon products or I buy Lumon Pharmaceuticals. Like the people who are not severed only think about in terms of they have this weird, you know, technology that some people opt in to and some people don't.

David Rios [00:56:06] Yeah, I, I mean, I don't I didn't get anywhere with this question but something and I talk a lot about with my partner, it's just like, where do you think they actually are? You know, like, is it like, is it like, uh, you know, is it, is it supposed to be like a callback to, like, Kodak in upstate, or is it like a university town? You know, like one of these like they're like Rust Belt kind of they're kind of mixing things, you know? But a lot of the stuff is at play of like, University Town or like, like you were saying Fordism or like what? You know, maybe it doesn't have to. Maybe it's not based on any one real place. They're definitely evoking like a lot of the economic structures and social structures associated with that for sure.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:56:56] Mhm. I didn't think about the college town piece, but yeah. Because they're both professors and they both left that.

David Rios [00:57:06] Yeah. And like, you know, there's like, at least in my experience with, like. With like, you know, I mean, like the punk scene obviously like resonated for me and hat sort of like. The way that it was presented felt very college town, like it's a little bit insular. This isn't like national bands, but like, everybody is serious and it means something and totally that just felt totally like close community. But, like, there is a subculture.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:57:40] Yeah. Which you don't see in most things.

David Rios [00:57:44] Yeah no not really.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:57:45] Most media portrayals.

Pat McMahon [00:57:47] I thought the call out of the fact that it seems like they're mixing a bunch of different places together. Like, I hadn't thought Rust Belt until you said so. Rios But definitely Rust Belt vibes, you know, like a, like an industry or one, one particular organization or company really driving a lot of the, you know, it's a huge facility. It seems like a lot of people work there and it seems like maybe not everyone's severed, but yeah, very much like, 21st century type kind of scary tech looming in like in a very 20th century type of, you know, American economic Fordism type city, you know, like that the the overlapping of those two things. You know, it's interesting that the company has such a. An established lore and history going back like whatever, 100 years or however many. And that it's it's also still like. Inside the facility. It looks very like kind of science fictiony. That this place kind of is in both the old world and the new world is really. Must must have been intentional, I would imagine. You know.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:59:10] Yeah. What do you think about? They're like retro desks and retro computers.

Pat McMahon [00:59:16] My thought is that that's like a strictly like a filmmaking visual. Like, create the palette kind of thing. It really, I think the the overwhelming, like, kind of brightness and whiteness of the halls and the the very like. Yeah, seventies sort of style of of the, you know, there's like shag or there's like carpet and like mid-century modern like types of, I don't know, office, office layouts and stuff. I don't know, I, I get the feeling that, um, it was a visual choice, but it certainly could have more implications than that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:59:59] Yeah. I don't know. I did. I tried also not to listen to any commentary or their theory about this show, but I the one thing that I remember is on some of the podcast that is like Ben Stiller, who I guess he made it. He's a producer. He's the director. Yeah. Like that. He's never had an office job. And like, it looks to some people as like a person who's never had an office job's idea of what an office job looks like.

Pat McMahon [01:00:21] Oh, my God. I love that so much. Yeah, he's like, visually. Okay, yeah, I can picture it. I've got it.

David Rios [01:00:29] Right.

David Rios [01:00:30] Yeah. There's a tiny cubicle in a giant sea of empty room.

Pat McMahon [01:00:35] That is very funny. Yeah, he. It's interesting that he's the person telling this story because he is a second generation entertainer.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:00:42] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You know the legacy piece? Yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:00:45] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:00:47] I mean I was also we were talking about midcentury modern and like the legacy of made me think about the ridiculous like they made the house right the house and they made the wax sculpture.

Pat McMahon [01:00:57] Oh yeah

Amy Yoshitsu [01:00:57] The people. Like that whole thing where that's very artistic and very religious and just like a wild thing to exist.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:01:05] Yep.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:01:06] That's all. And they definitely tipped their hand that she I mean, I didn't see it until the second season that she was going to be part of the family. Helly R, when she was like looking at the statue of the only woman CEO.

Pat McMahon [01:01:19] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:01:19] And she said something. Right. That. Like someone said, like. I can't. I maybe I wrote it down, but I don't know. Something like she's like. She really scares the Jesus. And like he said, no, it's Egan. I don't know. They're, like, clearly illiterate.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:01:35] That was a moment where she was she's looking at that female CEO, and Irving comes over and he's, like, really inspirational. She was she was a since a child she had wanted to be.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:01:46] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:01:47] And then Helly goes, Oh, that's amazing. It actually almost makes me miss my own childhood.

Pat McMahon [01:01:53] Yes, exactly. Sorry.

Pat McMahon [01:01:54] No, no problem. There was there was another moment actually in the very first or maybe it's the second episode because it's like the flashback to when we see her kind of onboarding with Milcheck. But so the four questions that they ask are the five questions that they ask when she wakes up are Who are you? What were your mother? The color of your mother's eyes? What is Mr. Egan's favorite breakfast? And then the two questions about the state. What state were born in? Name any state. And the Mr. Egan's breakfast one comes up the next day or in the next episode when she's walking around with Milcheck. They look at the giant statue of of the founder Kier. And there was like a moment where they talk about his favorite breakfast and that she she knows it and she's been aware of it for a long time. Like that's another little plant that like. You know, Milcheck also says, I think it's really amazing what you're doing here. You know, like I think it's really amazing that you've decided to do this or whatever. And the care that he shows her. On the outside, mirrored by the benevolence that he shows her on the inside. You know, when you go back and you watch it again, it's clear that she's someone different. It's clear that she's not, you know, taken care of in the same way. Like even at that point, Mark is the only person that we see outside. Aside from Helly's on boarding and we see him in the context of Mrs. Cobell keeping an eye on him. You know what I mean? We don't see him being taken care of or delicately handled, you know, ushered in and out of the hallway door. So that on a rewatch, it it became a little clearer that they were setting up. You know.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:03:45] Yeah I'm really curious to see to hear what you all think about check and just like him as an enforcer, but not the top enforcer. And I know that I'm very stuck on like the race of each person and their function, but like that aspect. And also the woman who represents the board. She's the representative, right? And so there's like two enforcement figures who are black in this company that otherwise it's like run and otherwise like the power centers in whiteness, obviously.

Pat McMahon [01:04:19] Yeah. That's something that I was definitely hyper aware of is that Milcheck is, you know, a black character in who whose roles and responsibilities are punishing people on behalf of the people, the white people who tell him to do so. You know, I think his role seems incredibly complicated. There's like it's also an interesting thing that to the people inside the severed office, the black man is like the the ultimate threat. You know, like. So, like inside an office world. This dark skinned black man is not only like threatening to them, but like not a part of their. He's a coworker, but he's not part of their circle. You know what I mean? There's like. But he's also not part of Cobel's circle because she she creates a barricade between him and and the work she's doing when she can. That's a really interesting character. And again, I could see it as like. When we were talking about Mark's wife's character, the Asian woman, and like the way that showrunners may have just may just be showing their implicit biases. You know, I don't know that it was like. On the mind of Ben Stiller to like to have these nuanced like thoughts on race or if he was just sort of like casting in empty places, he was like, Oh, this could be where a black character is, or this could be where an Asian character is because of the implicit biases in there. I don't know if I'm overly speculating clearly, but just something that I was thinking about.

David Rios [01:06:14] Yeah. Same. I was super aware of that too. I'm wondering, do you guys. I mean, I haven't done a rewatch, so. Do they ever show Milcheck outside of the office?

Pat McMahon [01:06:27] I don't believe so, no.

David Rios [01:06:29] Yeah. So, yeah, I'm super curious, like what his motivations are because it's like, at least with Cobel we know there's an altar and there's like agency and some either religious or whatever tie but with Milcheck, it's like, you know, and with Dylan too, honestly. Like, what? Why are they there? You know?

Amy Yoshitsu [01:06:53] Yeah.

David Rios [01:06:54] Because, like, I feel like. The thing that's not ever explicitly mentioned for any of the characters is the economics. Like, we don't know how broke anybody is.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:07:06] Exactly.

David Rios [01:07:07] And all we have to go on is their their, you know, personal motivation. So like, what's what are their family lives like? At least we know, like Dylan, there's clearly some kind of parental thing going on, but Milcheck. It's like, who would sign up for this shit, you know?

Amy Yoshitsu [01:07:25] Yeah. Yeah. And then at the end, pitting them against each other. Dylan and Milcheck.

Pat McMahon [01:07:30] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:07:32] That the situation forces them to be on opposite sides.

David Rios [01:07:34] Yeah. Yeah.

David Rios [01:07:34] That the only physical altercations have been happening between those two characters as well because they fight during the the dance party and then they fight. At the end. Or he tackles them at the end. There's a lot of race layered into it in complex ways, you know, like that. I don't know, the the the showrunners or filmmakers were, like, aware that they were doing, frankly.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:08:04] Mm hmm.

David Rios [01:08:05] Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I'd be curious to see how it plays out in the second season, because, you know, I could totally see because I think that is like. I think like fostering conflict between people of color is like saying whether implicit or intentional and in a lot of different, not just workplace context, but more generally. Right. So like, I'm like what I'm what I'm looking for next season is like, is that something that they deliberately, like put into the script and are going to continue to explore or, you know, is, is it a throwaway? I, I would really hope that it wasn't that they have a plan for that or they read the Internet or listening to this right now. Because there's you know, they have an opportunity to really like, you know. They have an opportunity to explore, like, actual fraught territory and and to tell the story that's true. To like, real experience.

Pat McMahon [01:09:15] This this conversation just reminded me there is actually one other black character that we haven't talked about that I'd love to give you guys thoughts on the the character of I think it's Reghabi. Carol Reghabi. She's the one who she's the scientist or doctor who severs and unsevered Petey. You know, I feel like she's so crucial, but also kind of in a very like we don't get a lot of insight into her. You know, she's a one sided character that we only see in the context of confusion from Mark. So I'm just curious what. I'm sure she would have to come back theoretically as as kind of the linchpin for, you know, like she's that she's the doctor that does the thing that they're they're spending so much time talking about. And I'm. I feel like that huge point of the plot sort of faded into the background of my mind. I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts on her character or that that kind of subplot.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:10:27] I think it's interesting that she clearly is the one who's very certain about having a conscience around this. And so is. I guess I'm trying to think gender wise also. Like so is Helly R has like as the innie is like very sure and in some ways also Mark's sister like it seems to be really the women of the show who are like very sure in their in their being against or uncertain about this process. And and then the character Reghabi being a female, assumably, a female doctor and this is I really why I've bring this in to the conversation because I've had this epiphany the entire time we're talking about like the innie and the outie referring to the belly button and relating to the birth right? And so like so that. Yeah. And I think the idea of the doctor thing like there's, it's interesting cause I'm like, really. Yeah. Obviously hung up on the birth thing. There's no doctor when the senator's wife gives birth, but there is this doctor who's basically birthing new people the innies.

Pat McMahon [01:11:33] Yeah a birth and rebirth.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:11:36] Yeah and then she's like sure that she and then obviously she's a bad ass, right. Because she kills the head enforcer. And then and works and I guess like the sewer, like some lab underground, like. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. It makes me think about all that and like any, all the tropes of shows that have, like, labs underground.

Pat McMahon [01:11:55] Oh, yeah, totally.

David Rios [01:11:58] Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot. I mean, I feel like women in media tend to shoulder the responsibility of, like, the moral conscience or like, you know, I mean, real life to a certain extent, too. Right. Yeah, it's. Yeah. They're playing that out for sure. I don't know how deep the breeder thing goes. That's, you know, they laid a lot of seeds out, I got to say.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:12:31] They did.

David Rios [01:12:31] I think all that stuff is I think I think it feels like they're actually thinking about all that stuff.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:12:38] I agree.

David Rios [01:12:40] Which is nice. That's I think that's what makes. Theories which make this makes the show enjoyable. The other thing this is. Not super relevant. But when you were talking about like the. Like the interior design. I. I like. Part of me was like, I think it's just a choice. You know, the Ben Stiller thing, like someone who's never worked in an office, but like, you know, if you want to read into it, like it's super disorienting to have things that have no real world analogs or anything, none of that stuff at all. It's like toys. So, like, and white walls, like. It's all meant to be disorienting, kind of. Yeah, that was my read on it. And, you know, the R&D lab same thing when they go to. What's. What's Irv's love interest's name.

Pat McMahon [01:13:42] Burt.

David Rios [01:13:43] Burt. When they go to Burt's department. You know, and seeing like the the sort of sterile, like 3D printing, you know, all this shit in there that. I don't know. It all seems otherworldly and a little bit like Playskool, not, play school. But, you know, it doesn't seem like an actual work place.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:14:03] Yeah, like a cartoon version.

David Rios [01:14:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:14:07] That's actually Burt's coworker. When you said the one black character we hadn't talked about, the one I was thinking of is his.

Pat McMahon [01:14:15] Oh yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:14:15] And her being like an older black woman. And just like also in the same vein of Dylan. Feeling very like very bought into the fear around the other group and very protective of their own group.

Pat McMahon [01:14:30] Yes. Yeah. Whereas Burt and Irv are both like, Hey, guys, look at these, look at these. You know, they're like us. We're friends. And yeah, the hostility between Dylan and the woman from R&D.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:14:43] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:14:43] Really, I it was, like, played for comic relief. I really enjoyed it. But it is, you know, there's something to be said for sure about the fact that those two characters are defensive. Whereas, like even Mark, while skeptical of R&D is like Dylan, calm down, please. Like be be polite. And I think Burt might do the same to his coworker.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:15:04] Yeah. Yeah. Ok one of the last questions as we wrap up. What I first thing that's really interesting to me about the show is the idea of, they do this, the actual work they do supposedly is like having the idea of having a feeling of fear or other emotion around numbers. Like that is the thing that really drew me in initially and collapsing, like the idea of STEM or numbers as a totally unemotional field and then bringing in like a very human thing. I don't know, any thoughts about that.

Pat McMahon [01:15:37] I think fear driving the thing that they know they're doing their job right is definitely a component that is. Parallels some of my work experiences. You know, fear of. It's not necessarily fear of like the work that you're doing, but fear motivating you to not goof up the numbers, you know?

David Rios [01:16:01] Yeah. I think there's I think there is like an embodied sort of like, um, like the sort of embodied nature of work, right? The idea that you could feel your work. That's a thing that I've experienced and seen in other contexts where it's like, you know, maybe you get to like, like people who work with spreadsheets, for example, teaching the new person. Oh, you just do like, you know, like if you've ever seen someone who's done the same things for like ten years. Right. They they feel their work. They don't, you know, they can do things efficiently that like. That like to to someone new would look fucking insane. Or like if you ever work with someone who doesn't know like exactly how to do something, but they've created their own system for doing a thing. It might be totally backwards and like, really like, inefficient, but they're just so good at it because they have their thing, like. I think I don't I think that is the type of thing that a lot of workplaces foster, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you know, like it's about it's about the output. So, like, however you get there, it's fine. And like, you know, when you've been somewhere long enough, that becomes like, like it's second nature. I do this thing second nature, you know, I can respond to an email the same way, like every time for this type of thing. Or like I can do, I can do the accounting in 20 minutes because I just, you know, for me it was data entry. I could filter like I could literally at some point in my life just read through like lines and lines of, of data entry cells looking for like spelling errors or like, you know, discontinuity, you know, like just shit like that.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:17:58] You are micro data refiners.

Pat McMahon [01:17:59] Yeah, I was going to say.

David Rios [01:18:01] I think that's a lot of people's experience of work, like people who are like anyone who does repetitive physical tasks where it's like you don't even have to look at like the buttons to know you're you know what I mean? Like, I just think that's I think that becomes like a source of pride and and sort of like a also like a coping mechanism of like, okay, I can do this good. Or like, oh, it's really easy. Like, that's that's one of the, the that's the tension of, like, the day to day experience of work.

Amy Yoshitsu [01:18:36] Well, I feel like we got a lot of places. I know reasons to work, so we should let them go.

David Rios [01:18:41] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [01:18:47] Bring your full self is put together through collective effort from the members of Converge Collaborative. Special thanks today to Rios and Amy and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group, our work, or we'd just like to say hi. You can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative dot com.