Transcript for S1E6

Coral Martin [00:00:01] Every time I see a person of color accepting limitations, I always kind of wonder like, how much of that is them feeling beaten down by what they've seen versus what's actually genuinely inside of their heart?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:15] Hi everyone. Welcome back to Bring Your Full Self, a podcast about the intersection of identity, creativity and labor. My name is Amy Yoshitsu.

Coral Martin [00:00:24] Hi, I'm Coral Martin. Thanks for having me.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:27] Of course, I'm really excited about this episode. Not only does it dive into the artistic backgrounds of both you and AmaYah Harrison, I love how it brings to the fore a lot of discussion about racial and gender issues and things that we discuss internally at a macro and micro scale.

Coral Martin [00:00:45] Yeah, yeah, I agree, Amy. It was really powerful to talk to AmaYah. The amount of parallels in our lives was really striking. It's always meaningful to connect with other BIPOC creatives and compare notes.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:00:56] Yeah, and I especially love the combination of photographer and dancer. I just think that's a really special interest that you both have and also that you have a lot in common as people will hear when they listen to this podcast. It brought up also a lot of wonderful threads about travel, how one's high school experience and younger years continue to contribute to their trajectory as adults and about navigating artistic and personal relationships.

Coral Martin [00:01:25] Yeah, I think that in talking to AmaYah, who is also a fellow OSA grad, it was really it was I mean, a striking for me as someone who, you know, I don't spend a lot of time reflecting on every choice I made in high school. It was really it was really fascinating to see that for both of us, choices we made at OSA really affected our trajectory as artists and just generally in our lives. And the time we spent at OSA really shaped us. And so it was really, for me, meaningful to have that conversation because I don't really take a lot of time to reflect on that on a daily basis.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:02:04] Awesome. And Coral, I know you have a lot going on and that you're juggling tons of projects and I want to see what you've been up to since we recorded this and what's going on in your life. If you want to, just briefly give us an update.

Coral Martin [00:02:17] Oh, okay. So since recording this conversation, I started working for a school in Berkeley called Berkeley Ballet Theater as the director of the school. And it's been about four months that I've been in the role and definitely a ton of learning, a ton of kind of adventure. And I'm really excited to see what the what the year continues to to bring and what unfolds as I grow in the new role.

[00:02:47] Congratulations. All of those ballet kids are so lucky to have you. I know. Because you've been doing ballet in Berkeley for.

[00:02:55] 3000 years.

[00:02:55] Yeah, 3000 years.

[00:02:58] Just about. Yes. Okay.

[00:02:59] So I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. And so without any further ado, I hope people enjoy this conversation between Coral Martin and AmaYah Harrison. Thanks for listening, everyone.

Speaker 2 [00:03:10] Thank you.

Coral Martin [00:03:16] Yay.

AmaYah Harrison [00:03:17] Where do we start?

Coral Martin [00:03:20] I know. I mean, I really enjoyed reading your factoid sheet, but then I actually got nervous because I was like, how am I going to rein myself in? Just like so many interesting things have happened to you. So I didn't even quite know where to start, so. Yeah, do you have an idea?

Speaker 2 [00:03:39] No, I totally felt the same way. I was like, oh, my gosh, what an interesting, like, just background in general. But I mean, I guess I do have some questions about like your background in ballet and how like was it was that something that I mean, you were two, but was it has it always been the passion of yours or did that that eventually just like grows since it's always been a part of your life.

Coral Martin [00:04:04] Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think the reason that my first ballet class happened when I was two had everything to do with being a younger sister and not a lot with me being adamant about taking ballet classes when I was a toddler. I think it was just my older sister was going to the classes on the weekend and I think my parents couldn't leave their two year old at home. They didn't want to get a babysitter. So it was kind of like, well, is there a class for two year olds so that we can just, like kind of drop them both off? And, you know, honestly, it's it's interesting because I feel like I have some distinct memories of some of my very early ballet classes. So maybe more like age like three or four. And I think even at that age, it kind of felt like. It did already kind of feel like a part of my identity just because it was this thing that I did regularly. I knew it was a space where I was going to kind of expand and grow. And I also had a lot of fun. You know, it was it was this nice mixture of feeling challenged, feeling like I was aiming for something that felt worthwhile, so not just like I'm just being challenged, and it's painful and frustrating but I'm like, Oh, the goal that I see ahead of me, which at the time that I was like a little kid, was just what my teacher was able to do feels almost magical. Like, look at this person who's able to to kind of harness their, their human strength to create something that seems like more more than just human. And I thought that was really fascinating. And then on top of it, because I was a little kid, you know, they kind of build in games. And I think because I started with those classes at such a young age, it did kind of integrate into like, Oh, this is part of who I am. I'm a dancer. And since I don't really have strong memories of being like under two, all of my memories kind of have some relationship to, to dancing. And so, yeah, I mean, I think I enjoyed it from the beginning. I don't think there was. Over a point where I felt like my parents were like, Coral, you have to keep going. I think I was pretty self-motivated, even though they do tell me that, you know, because the earlier earliest classes I was taking, like the little pre ballet classes for babies were on Saturday mornings, I think I would not want to go because it was too early for me to wake up and I tell them I was like, I quit because I don't want to get out of bed. And they'd be like, You had to go because you liked it so much last week. You were so happy afterwards, don't you remember? And I just all I could think of, I can imagine because I'm still this way in the moment. It's like the warmth of the sheets and just kind of like how relaxed I was. And I was like, Nothing could be better than this. Don't lie to me. I thought you loved me. You're my parents. This is horrible. And then I'd get out and go to class. I'd love it. I'd feel energized. And then like slowly over the week I'd, forget and then I'd have to go do that cycle again. So I do have to credit them for helping me to continue at those early stages because I think after after the beginning, it was pretty self-sustaining. But man it was those Saturday mornings.

AmaYah Harrison [00:07:20] Yeah, that's a lot of like motivation you have to harness, especially as a as a child to learn that so early.

Coral Martin [00:07:29] And I still haven't fully mastered it. But yeah, it was it was a thing.

AmaYah Harrison [00:07:38] Wow, that's so interesting. And so when you talk about, like, the magic of ballet and like, you know, creating something from. I guess like something physical from from nothing, I guess. Is that something that has influenced any other parts of your life?

Coral Martin [00:07:56] Yes that's another really good question. I need to step up my game when it's my turn. but I mean, I think that just like any. Any practice that requires you to continually hone your skills. So I think this is the case for basically any artist, any practitioner of something that kind of like the product you have to externalize, which is everything. But I feel like it did kind of teach me a sense of humility in the face of hard work. That really helped me to to. To develop a sense of patience, a strong work ethic and a kind of kind of the way to phrase this is a little bit escaping me, but a kind of a way to kind of tamp down the ego in that in order to get to whatever your goal is, no matter whether it's in the dance studio or if it's in an academic setting or even in the course of a relationship, there has to be a certain amount of dedication to like literally just the physical steps of getting to to your goal. And you kind of have to extract your feelings about that from the equation sometimes to really succeed or to really get get ahead. And so I think that was definitely something I struggled with because when I would hit a wall in dance, sometimes it felt so so deeply personal or deeply emotional and kind of like really rocked my world because because I had been dancing from such a young age, that was a big part of how I define myself outside of my dance classes. Like when I go to school or within my family, I think it was really important to me to see myself as like a ballet dancer. And so when I was in spaces where it's like, okay, I'm trying to learn this step, and I'm really struggling with it that didn't, you know, something didn't work out. It felt like it was kind of rocking me to my foundation because I'm like, This is how I define myself. So I think learning to move through those moments where you really are struggling to move forward and just not take that personally and just do the work required to to solve whatever the puzzle is or to realize, okay, maybe this is a challenge I can't surmount in the amount of time I've given myself and just kind of like plodding along and not making it into an emotional event really helped me and other other aspects of my life to kind of put things into perspective and to keep working through challenge instead of allowing it to paralyze me. But I do think that in terms of in terms of like a daily practice where I'm always completely in sync with this way of being like, absolutely not. I just know it exists. I don't always access it. I often get emotional when I'm frustrated, but it's just helpful to have seen time and time again in my dance training these moments where I was like, Oh, this is really, really hard. I don't think I'll ever do it. And then if I gave myself the five years to continually chip away at it, see, like, oh, actually now this is very much attainable using those examples to kind of remind myself in other parts of my life that sometimes things take time or your approach has to change and it's okay. So yeah.

AmaYah Harrison [00:11:19] Yeah, yeah. Wow, that's huge. I mean, it sounds like dance has taught you, like, so much. Just like about life and like different aspects of life. Like, I feel like the whole lesson of learning to kind of, I mean, emotionally detach sounds bad, but emotionally detach from your challenges in order to get to the next step is it's so big and hard and especially in art, since the two are so like intertwined emotion and art. And in order to grow, you sometimes have to detach from that. That's really interesting.

Coral Martin [00:11:58] Yeah. I mean, I'm curious. I know, you know, you've been involved in in photography for many years when that spark kind of Ignited for you. What was the? If you maybe it was many different things, but can you kind of pinpoint a moment where it was really clear to you that that was a direction that you wanted to move in artistically?

AmaYah Harrison [00:12:21] Yeah, my mom was really adamant about just exposing me to as much as possible. And she I mean, that's that's why I ended up going like auditioning for Oakland School for the Arts. And she just wants me to, like, get into music or something that would like, like take me out of Oakland and like to see the world and in some way or form. And she was just like she was very supportive and I was super looking for that. And somehow she like she found this deal for like a super cheap camera. And, and then I just started I just started like taking pictures everywhere and like, I think it recorded video, too. So I was like, do a little videos with my friends when I was like 12. And it's just kind of, it kind of stuck from there because it was just it was just like a fun little thing to do in like 2007 and, and it yeah, it's, it's like that's I think that's how I found it because I just I would keep it with me wherever I went. And even though I was doing music and I did music for a long time, that was always that was always kind of where my heart really was. And then in 10th grade, I auditioned to go to this, the Summer School this Arts Summer School for video. And I think I feel like that kind of solidified it even more because I learned way more than I think it was my first actual video class or photo video class. And it just kind of like just opened opened my eyes to the whole world of photo and video. And then they added a digital media department at OSA. And I was like, Okay, I'm definitely switching to that. And it just it just grew from there. Amy mentioned that you also went to Oakland School for the Arts. Is that true?

Coral Martin [00:14:12] I did. I went to OSA so. I think that. I'm not exactly sure what our age difference is, but I missed you because I'm a little older. But I went when it started. So the first year the OSA was in operation was 2002, and that was my freshman year of high school. And I just remember it was I mean, at that age, I was already very serious about dance and I knew that I wanted to dance professionally. And that was pretty much. That was very solid in terms of a goal at that age. But I also I mean, I really love to draw. I've always loved drawing, and I just loved the idea of having access to all these different forms of artistic training. So even though I was like very adamant that, okay, yes, I want to be a professional dancer, it wasn't to the exclusion of these other ways of being artistic that appealed to me. I also really like to write there are all of these things that I was like, Oh, it would be great to have it continue to have outlets for this and have training. Yeah. So actually I think when I went to audition for OSA, I auditioned both for the dance department and also the visual art department. And so I kind of went in with this kind of like a dual identity, just like it sounds like you had as well where you started out in music and then decided to move on to the digital media department. Is that what it's called?

AmaYah Harrison [00:15:53] Yeah. That's what its called

Coral Martin [00:15:55] Okay. And I think that that. That was really interesting just because I felt like it gave me this more kind of broad experience of of being in the school. Because I started out the first year, I believe I was the full first year I was in the dance department and then I was actually only at OSA for two years. I switched after sophomore year to Berkeley Independent Study, but in my second year of being at OSA, I moved over to the art department and I think that just felt like a really kind of in sync with what I needed at that age. But also just true to the to the to the fact that, you know, at that point in your life, I think it's really important to be able to be flexible with with what you're interested in. And I think it was really healthy for me to, like go into the art department because I would leave OSA and I would dance for another like three or 4 hours, sometimes 5 hours after school. So having that year where I was training in the visual art department was a really nice balance. The first year was just too much because it's like I'd be at school dancing and then I'd go to my ballet school and dance for several hours, and then I'd spend the summers dancing and I was just like, I need to do something else. And so, so yeah. So I really enjoyed my time at OSA, but because it was brand new, I think there are still a lot of things that were in flux and they're still kind of figuring out their identity, whether or not they'd actually survive all of these things. We were still in the basement of the Malonga Casquelour Center at that time was still called the Alice Art Center. Yeah. So we didn't even have a permanent home and teachers were in and out because it was in flux. I think there are a lot of teachers who kind of felt like, I think. You know, not sure about the longevity of the school. So there was a lot of there was a lot of. Kind of shift from month to month, semester to semester, year to year. And it did feel kind of destabilizing. And so that on top of the fact that the some of that kind of academic. Like they weren't meeting California standards across the board. So some of the classes were like, great. And then other ones, for example, science. We didn't have a dedicated lab, obviously, so I couldn't take any lab science classes, which was a requirement to get into college. And I was like, Well, I like or at least have the option to go to college. And I don't want that to be a determining factor, just that like this school doesn't have like a lab space. And so so I did decide to leave largely for academic reasons. I felt like my artistic training was really awesome. I was I was really happy to be exposed to the different teachers and classmates that I was exposed to. But yeah, I was worried that I'd go to apply to colleges and they'd be like, What were you doing? Yeah, so. So that's why I left OSA. But they're really, really wonderful and formative years. I still am really close to some of my friends that I met at OSA. So yeah, I feel very proud to say that I went there, but obviously it's very different from someone who's gone more recently after the school I think has become a lot more solid and has a really strong reputation, like someone who's gone for a full four years. Like that's not the experience I had, but I am proud to say I have an affiliation.

AmaYah Harrison [00:19:36] Yeah, definitely like you're part of the like OG crowd in the Alice Art Center. Oh my gosh. I can't imagine. Like I was there when they, when they were in the portables in that little parking lot. And I know what you're talking about, what the like they're still forming like sometimes we didn't have a Spanish teacher. Like, people are just like going crazy in the portables and like, very disorganized, but like, you know, the vision was there and like, the, the passion was there, and like, the amazing artists were there. And just, like, you know, just like catering to the youths of Oakland, like, creatively, it was like it was really amazing. I think they got it together a lot more once they moved into the Fox. And I've heard things now like, I think the culture has changed a lot since I graduated it's just kind of shifted. But I don't, I don't really know. I'm not really that that close to things anymore but like I've heard things here and there and like some of the people from my grade are trying to like get back into into administration so that they can, like, keep it the way, you know, the original vision, the way it was supposed to be. But it's just interesting to to hear the stories of like the different phases of OSA, because it definitely has shifted a lot over the years.

Coral Martin [00:21:04] For sure. It's I mean, I, I feel like I'm probably even further from what's the current iteration of the school looks like. But I do periodically have students that I'm teaching like ballet classes to who go to OSA. And it's always funny that they have their like OSA jackets and like all of this gear and I'm like, we were lucky, like, make it through the day, you know.

AmaYah Harrison [00:21:33] How, how are, how are your classes doing? Like, how, how did you like I mean, since dancing has been like it seems like it's been a part of your life, like throughout your life. Did you know that that's something that you'd want to do? Like after college?

Coral Martin [00:21:48] Yeah, for sure. I think what's interesting and I'm really glad that this culture is changing, but just. I think particularly in classical ballet, not quite as much and more like modern dance or kind of more contemporary styles or even other forms of dance that are like coming from different parts of the world besides like France. There isn't, I don't think, quite as much of an emphasis that on the age you are when you begin your career. But I feel like a lot of the training that I had, early on, that kind of informed my my mentality surrounding like how I should approach my career, really encouraged dancers who considered themselves, quote unquote, serious to begin dancing essentially as soon as you got a contract and to aim to get a contract by like around 18. So a lot of the people that I trained with who are really, really serious about their career didn't go to college. That wasn't part of. Like no one, really supported that as a goal. If they saw you as someone who had promise or talent, they kind of encourage you to go for a professional contract as soon as possible. So I think some of the people that I encountered in my training who were very, very serious started dancing when they were like 16 and professionally issued college. Some of them are maybe now in colleges like 33 year olds, but they had their professional career starting at 16, 17, 18, and just danced through those years. And so I think I, I was kind of in this situation where I really, really wanted to succeed to the highest level possible. And so I saw that step forward as an example, if you have to begin your career as young as possible, honestly, and there I have mixed feelings about it now that I'm older. I know some of it just has to do with the fact that injury is kind of this constant threat. And so the younger you are, in a way, the more physically resilient you are. So like, yes, oh yeah, I broke my leg last year, but it'll heal. If you're 18, that might be a little bit less of a doomsday kind of thing than if you're 35. And so I think that idea of beginning your career young, while in certain ways I think is very limiting for the actual people who have to experience that. It makes sense from the perspective of the the people running the company that they want to get the maximum amount of years out of a dancer. So there's that. So when I did end up going to college, there was a part of me that was like, Oh, this is a failure. I'm failing by going to college, which is so sad and so kind of unfortunate and I didn't like really in like the depths of my soul believe that. But I think I just been in so many spaces where the idea of success did not include college at 18. And I had been offered a contract in a kind of like confusing way, but I could have just danced professionally at that age. So in a way, I just was trying to get through college, although I was really privileged to have a wonderful college experience. It was the best educational experience I had up to that point, and I still look back on that opportunity, kind of like shocked that I had it, but I definitely entered college with this, like I need to get through this so I can go in dance. Like, it was almost like this is an interruption to what I think of as my life. And so there was no question that I wanted to dance afterwards just because I had kind of dedicated my entire being to being a dancer. And so it wasn't, it was like non-negotiables, like, I'm going to make this happen. I'm really, really glad, though, that I, I did go to college and I went to a college where you couldn't major in dance. Not that I would want to, because I kind of wanted I wanted a degree that would expand and diversify my skills and my mentality and not just kind of, like, continually hone in on what I already had spent my life doing.

AmaYah Harrison [00:26:13] Right.

Coral Martin [00:26:14] But yeah, definitely there was no question. I was like, I want to dance. So. So yeah. So it's, it's everyone ends up kind of going on their own path. I ran into a lot of people in college who also were really serious about dance. But, you know, like me, I mean, I was also very serious about academics, wanted to get a degree. And so that was also really encouraging to have that community of like minded people, because I'd never quite had that when I was in training of people who are like very or at least I'm sure there are people around me, but I didn't connect with them. I didn't meet them who were really, really like, yeah, like I love to dance. If this happens, great. But I also want to get a solid education and push myself as much as I can academically. So I always felt a bit isolated in that regard. So it was nice to have that community of people kind of walked a similar path to me by the time I got to school, to college, that is. I'm sorry. I got really off topic.

AmaYah Harrison [00:27:13] No, no, not at all. Not at all. I'm just like yes, it's so interesting. What did you what did you major in?

Coral Martin [00:27:20] I ended up majoring in social anthropology. I knew in school I was really some of the like the subjects that I was the most engaged by were, you know, the sciences and humanities. So I was like, you know, I don't necessarily want to have to kind of like. Split my interests. And so I found this department called The History of Science that I thought was really fascinating because you took history classes, you took science like lab oriented classes, and then you also took classes that were literally about the history of the development of science. And I was like, This is really cool. This really speaks to kind of who I see myself as as an academic person like being you know. And so I was really interested in that department. I took a few classes in the department and I enjoyed them. I took a class that was about the history of psychiatry and psychology that I found really fascinating, just because it really dealt with the historical treatment from like before the common era of people who have, you know, mental illness or even just are on a spectrum that that differs from what's considered kind of cognitively average. And just, you know, there's such a it's still I feel like a really under misunderstood kind of aspect of of human biology is like the brain. And so I think that it's just really interesting to see how cultures across time and space dealt with mental illness. And it really differs. Some of it's really horrifying, but it just it was it was really interesting in terms of understanding how we've defined science as a species for for for centuries. And some of it really is bordering on kind of like what looks like what we would consider like using magic talismans or doing things that kind of feel like, oh, this, how is this, how would this work? But it then makes me reflect on like, you know, we look we'll look at what we're doing 500 years from now and be like, Oh, my gosh, why were we doing this to ourselves and to each other? So I found that class really interesting. I took another class in the department and I didn't find it quite as interesting. It was basically like a survey of all of these major scientific discoveries, largely like that were kind of largely linked to European men. And I just kind of felt like, yes, I know that there are a lot of brilliant scientists coming out of Europe, but you cannot convince me that's the only place where scientific innovation emerged from. So I was really frustrated by that. As a black woman, you know, coming from Berkeley, just that I was like, you know, like I'm aware that there are all of these ways of thinking that could be considered scientific innovation happening all over the world. And it really annoys and frustrates me that we're still being taught to laud and revere only these few people in this very narrow context. So I was already like, I'm not feeling this class. Okay? So there was that moment where I was just like, I'm going to like take this class and then try to take it seriously. But I'm already like, my nerves are feeling something, you know, and and then I just remember also the professor had this this tone of voice that was really, really it came across as very arrogant. And I was like. Oh, gosh. Like, I can't listen to his voice. Which can't be the reason I don't take the class. But it didn't help. And then I just remember growing up again, growing up in Berkeley. Also, my mom is an anthropologist and she did a lot of work with a group of people in Belize called the Garifuna. She really taught me to really kind of examine any form of history with a very critical eye and say, look, whoever is telling you this is, you know, this is political. There's a certain aspect of this that's propaganda because there are always going to be other aspects of the story, like the amount of people involved who are actually represented in a historical moment is always going to be just a fraction of what's actually reflected. So I think having that mentality going into that class, I just was like, not ready for how what felt like regressive and Eurocentric it was. And so that just was like a question mark. And I just remember looking or sorry, coming to a class on what will always be for me, Indigenous Peoples Day. Only recently has that become more widespread as a kind of way to approach Columbus Day. But, you know, I went to school in the Boston area, much more conservative generally than the Bay Area, and so it's still considered Columbus Day. In my heart, I was like this indigenous peoples day. I had my Indigenous Peoples Day shirt on, all my things. And I just remember that it was a teaching fellow who was it was leading the discussion that day and she basically kind of was like, Oh, poor Columbus. He got lost. And I was like, you know, I understand that every every person has should be able to be redeemed. But I just, unfortunately, will always associate Columbus with, you know, instigating a genocide, you know, and I'm just kind of like. I can't really I can't link his name with with the descriptor poor. Like, I'm like, ain't nothing poor about that man. He like defrauded all these people of their wealth their livelihood and their actual lives and like, no, I just cannot I can't sit in this classroom and listen to this. So I got up and left and I emailed that the teaching fellow and I was like, this really I found problematic. And her response wasn't my favorite. So I left that department. I tried really hard to make it work. I tried really hard. And I remember my proposal was also not taken very seriously because I was really interested in like neurobiology and biochemistry and I wanted to do research on the actual physical effects of racism on the brain, which people currently are involved in that type of research. But I remember getting this feedback of kind of like, oh, like we don't really have a precedent for that. Like, I don't know, we're going to do. And so I just knew. I was like, okay, this is not the space for me. There are a lot of things here that have the potential to work in theory, but in practice, this is not a space for me. It does not actually feel like I'm being taken seriously or my experience as a human being is really being honored because I'm here trying to learn about things that I think affect a lot of people. And I'm just learning about Copernicus like I don't need to sorry, Copernicus. And so, so I moved over to social anthropology because it just felt like a space where we were actually trying to learn about the experiences of a wide swath of people, including people of color, you know, and like honoring the. The traditions of a variety of people in their and kind of lionizing their knowledge as as legitimate. And so I think that was really what I was seeking in that history of science department. They just weren't ready to do that. Sadly, I mean, granted, I graduated college 11 years ago, but still I'm just like. It's very disappointing. So I moved because I've moved over to the anthropology department just because it felt a little bit more politically aligned with the type of work I wanted to do. And ultimately, I'm really, really glad that I did. But I tried really hard not to study anthropology because my mom was an anthropologist and I was like, I don't want to seem like a copycat. I am so long winded. AmaYah I going to stop, stop talking.

AmaYah Harrison [00:35:04] Oh, no, no!

Pat McMahon [00:35:11] That concludes part one of the conversation with AmaYah Harrison and Coral Martin. Part two is available to listen and can be found wherever you are right now listening to Part one. Bring Your Full Self is put together through the collective effort of the members of Converge Collaborative. A special thanks today to Coral and AmaYah and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group our work, or would just like to say hi. You can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative dot Com or on Instagram at Converge Collaborative.