Transcript for S1E8

Michelle McCrary [00:00:00] But yeah, I just. I'm not interested. I'm not interested. And it's not because I'm not ambitious, and it's not because I don't have the capability. It's just like I don't want to do it like that and I don't want to. My ambition is to live up full embodied life.

Pat McMahon [00:00:21] Hi, everybody. I'm Pat McMahon.

Michelle McCrary [00:00:24] Hi, I am Michelle McCrary.

Pat McMahon [00:00:27] And I'm super, super excited to be talking with Michelle as an introduction for her conversation with Amy Yoshitsu as another episode of Bring Your Full Self, which is a podcast we're doing as part of Converge Collaborative. Michelle I'm super appreciative of having gotten to listen firsthand to the conversation that you and Amy were having, and even more so when I went back and revisited it, I think the the fact that you guys navigated so many different conversational topics, so many similarities and areas of overlap between you guys. I love the way you spoke about being only children. I liked listening to you talk about the various aspects of passion for music and then all of the ways that you were, you know, setting up conversations around work, identity and creativity in all of the ways that we're hoping to achieve with Converge. I just thought it was really such a fantastic conversation. So a huge thank you to you and Amy.

Michelle McCrary [00:01:37] Oh, wow. Well, thank you, Pat. And thanks to Amy and Louis for inviting me into the Converge journey. I feel like I have been looking for Converge, but not knowing it and wanting to be in a space that felt more supportive, inside of the system where the priority is like earn money at all costs there. I mean, there are sacrifices that you have to make, of course, in life. But I feel like the trade off. Just to make a living. It feels. It feels all or nothing. Which if which is basically how this culture is set up. A culture of scarcity, a culture of all or nothing. And it's always a fight to find balance. And I always felt like I was doing something wrong in the world of work. Like I maybe I'm the one who's not getting this right. You know, maybe I'm the one who is not settling into this kind of way of being. I'm not work life balancing well enough. And when I met Amy initially when I was working on an artist residency program and she came through as an artist in residence, a colleague of mine and a friend of mine was just like, You've just got to talk to Amy. Like I going to talk to all the artists, but you two really have to talk. And we did. And it was like this instant connection. And I think. After that talk or the second time we spoke, she kind of gave me the information about Converge to see if I'd be interested in coming on board as like a social member initially. You know, it's a workers co-op and you and Amy and Louis, and then there are other folks who are kind of in, you know, in the origin story of Converge who created it but. Yeah. I was like, wow, this is really crazy that there's all these people and we kind of had these similar experiences in the workplace.

Pat McMahon [00:04:23] Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle McCrary [00:04:24] And I did not feel so alone. And even though there are people that I know from my life working in a bunch of different places, we've sort of commiserated about these things. The sense I get from them is that, you know, A) that's kind of like in some place in some cases where they want to be or they've made a peace for themselves to be in that place with all of its like horror, sometimes all of its draining. And they weren't looking for a way out in the way that I was aware, in the sense of like trying to create something different and not just kind of go back to another version of that.

Pat McMahon [00:05:13] Oh, absolutely.

Michelle McCrary [00:05:14] Yeah.

Pat McMahon [00:05:15] Absolutely. No, I well, first of all, I just want to say Converge is so much better for having you in it. The perspective that you bring and the knowledge that you have. It's like really all the ways that I love the way you talk about your knowledge of the dark arts, the communication and PR and how to message things. And now the way that you've talked about bringing that skill set to to this work and have it not be used for the dark arts, so to speak, anymore of of big corporate advertising. I just think the perspective you bring is so wonderful and I can relate so much to the way that you're talking about, just now, and in conversation with Amy, the way that you were talking about feeling like the the success in a in a work space was not set up for you, you know, that that it felt like you were doing something wrong because you weren't seeing the same kind of path to success that was laid out as the the primary road for success in these kind of corporate work environments. I can relate immensely to that. I, too, felt like I was doing something wrong. I didn't feel like it was. I felt like there was something inherently off about the way that I was approaching it. And I was really looking for some alternative that I didn't know existed until I was in conversation with Amy about it. I think I think her vision for creating something new is so easy to follow because she's been able to so clearly articulate the way that it can exist. And I don't know about you know, I wonder I'm curious, I guess. Do you feel like you are the type of person that is able to visualize these kinds of differences or changes or new structures, because I certainly don't feel that way. I feel lifted by Amy's vision and our collective effort.

Michelle McCrary [00:07:17] Yeah, I. I know that I have a vision. For sure and I can imagine ways of being and living. But I also realize that I am a person who is in a constant state of healing and a constant state of undoing like undoing all of this stuff that we have been kind of acculturated to. And that to me feels like part of the fight. And that also feels like that's a blocker sometimes to imagining different spaces and different ways of being and living in different structures and organizations and. Yeah, I struggle with that, too. I'm like, you know, am I the kind of person who can see it and like bring it to life? I would say yes, but I don't think I was in a place to do that because I was thinking I could do that inside of those structures that were not set up for that. I was thinking I could bring all that energy and all that vision into those places and do something amazing and not seeing like the highly kind of like individualistic nature of that, which I'm still doing a lot of unlearning around and how much I really, truly love to be in collaboration. Like it's not even a lie. Like, I love working with other people. I feel like I learn from people. That's my experience. And that was a problem with the hierarchy of the way things are set up in corporate America. It's like somebody is up high and people can't see me. I'm like hand gestures, someone is up high and kind of delegating to all the people and guiding the ship. And then there are people who are below and like they're the when if the people below have really good ideas, usually the people above or around engage in theft. I have experienced that. Engage in, you know, just like it's not true collaboration. And then you become like paranoid. And it's this real setup of like the rock star, the superstar, the individual. And I, that never fit me. I when I had the opportunity to run my own team. At my last gig I really tried to bring that forward because I really feel like people have superpowers. And when we all kind of come together and we all bring our superpowers together, it's like, Oh, wow, you're seeing something that I didn't see. You're coming at this thing in a way that I would never, and I feel like it is a blessing and I'd ever feel like it, like in an extractive way. And I always felt like in kind of like the corporate world. It felt extractive. It's like we're going to get the, quote, best and brightest. We're going to come in here and suck everything out of them. Then they're going to people who people who are going to be sidelined. And then there are going to be people who refused to be sidelined, God bless them. But they're the cost for them to be the exception or be exceptional. It's like wild. And I mean, some people are built for that. And for me, I had a real tension around that and I think I had to make peace with part of my healing is making peace with me and the way that I want to do things and not like being so external about this is the way it should be. Because this is what I've seen in the world, you know?

Pat McMahon [00:11:29] Totally. No, absolutely. Yeah. I think you have such an excellent way of kind of. Putting together like a thesis statement. You know, there was a moment you had in conversation with Amy where you you talked about like that work life balance and how much like a corporate world is aiming to kind of pull everything out of you. Take everything from you. Be the only thing that you're thinking about. And like, you know, it's not. You talked about how it's not that you don't have the ambition or the ability to do that. It's that you want to live a fuller, embodied life. And I think that the way that you the way that you described kind of the recognition of superpowers of collaboration and and avoiding that, like the lie that we've been sold about individualism and that's the way to succeed. Everybody is succeeding on their own. The way that you so expertly spoke that and tied that up, I think is is a is a perfect, perfect way to lead in to this conversation that that you and Amy have. I think that the way that you tie everything together is just really a testament to both your your skills as a communicator and also your experience and the way that it had serves so well what we're what we're working on here is as a group. Like like I said before, I think Converge is so much improved for having your input and your collaboration and your presence in it. So I'm like, I really I'm so thrilled to get to collaborate with you on this project at large on some of the smaller projects that we've been we've been working on together. And so, yeah, I'm just I'm really thrilled to get to introduce what I think is a fantastic conversation between between you and Amy. So without further ado, I guess I'll tee up a conversation between Michelle McCrary and Amy Yoshitsu.

Michelle McCrary [00:13:36] Thank you, I appreciate you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:13:46] Hey, Michelle.

Michelle McCrary [00:13:47] Hi.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:13:48] Hi.

Michelle McCrary [00:13:51] How are you?

Amy Yoshitsu [00:13:53] I'm doing well. How are you doing?

Michelle McCrary [00:13:56] I am here. I am up. I'm having, like, my first coffee and actually my second coffee in a couple of weeks. I got I got I got hit with the COVID, as you know.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:14:09] Yeah.

Michelle McCrary [00:14:10] And just like from that period for like two weeks, two and a half weeks, I just didn't want coffee. So I was drinking tea. I was drinking the gorgeous tea that you sent me. I've been, like, just savoring it, like, not.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:14:27] I'll send you more. Don't worry. Drink it. Drink it.

Michelle McCrary [00:14:30] No, I love it. I have plans to make iced tea with it this summer and see how that goes. Because I have a lot of fresh herbs in my garden that have survived since last summer when it was like, scorching hot. So, yeah, I feel like lemon balm. Maybe in that tea or lemon balm and lemon thyme.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:14:52] That sounds great. I love both of those.

Michelle McCrary [00:14:55] Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I'm good, I'm good.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:14:58] I'm so glad. Yeah, I, I like, reviewed the material that we had sent each other last night and I jotted down some questions I don't know to kick off the conversation. Or if you have something, please start.

Michelle McCrary [00:15:12] Oh, gosh, yeah. No, kick it off. Because if you let me go, I'll just ramble.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:15:18] I mean, that's what we're here for. That's what we're here for. But one thing that I know we've kind of talked about in the past, but that we both have in common is being only children.

Michelle McCrary [00:15:26] Yes.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:15:27] And that's very I think it's more normal now. I was talking to my friend, like my generation of people will either, like, not have kids or have one kid. But and so so many of my friends are like, what? You know, they know me, and they're like, What's it like being an only child? Did you feel this in this? Because they're now scared. They have siblings and they're about to have kids. I know you have more than one kid. Yeah. Anyway, that's like an open thing. Did you want to talk about that and how maybe that relates to other topics that we share?

Michelle McCrary [00:15:52] Um, yeah. You know, I feel like I was one of those only children who always wanted, like, a brother or a sister.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:16:03] Mm hmm.

Michelle McCrary [00:16:03] And I had a lot of cousins, so I wasn't I didn't really dwell on a lot of that. I had a very fraught relationship with my cousins on my dad's side, and those are the ones I mainly grew up with. But my cousin on my mom's side, my mom's oldest sister's daughter, she is basically my sister. So I grew. We grew up together even though she lived in Georgia. I spent all my summers down there and I would be with her like her little shadow. She's the one who turned me on to Prince really. Because she's like the OG Prince and Janet Jackson fan. She's like a little bit older than me. Not much. Yeah. So that was my sister. She's still. I feel like we've really grown into our relationship even more now. So. Yeah, so I felt like I had that impulse. But when I reflect on it, I. I always had her.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:17:12] Does that dovetail into your love of music and your early desires to be a music writer?

Michelle McCrary [00:17:17] That is mostly my dad, too. Oh, okay. My dad was a very cool dude. So he is really he was really cool. He had me when, he and my mom got married when they were in their twenties and they must've had me - in their early, early twenties. They must have had me maybe in their late twenties. So by the time I was growing up with him as a kid, he was like probably in like the dirty thirties. But he had this really big record collection that he had to reestablish because when they were moving from Brooklyn to Queens, somebody stole, like, a whole bunch of crates of his records.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:18:04] Wow.

Michelle McCrary [00:18:05] And only a few of them survived.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:18:07] Oh, that was so sad for him.

Michelle McCrary [00:18:09] Yeah, he was devastated, but I have very vivid memories of him making me watch. We watched Woodstock together. His favorite was Monterey Pop.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:18:20] Yep. I know all about Monterey Pop.

Michelle McCrary [00:18:23] We watch that over and over. And he just had this huge music collection. And I would go down there and just listen to all his records. So he would listen to like Talking Heads, Fleetwood Mac, he and my mom were big Smokey Robinson and The Miracle fans. My mom is a big James Brown fan and she's the Jimi Hendrix fan. So I inherited all of his records. So, yeah, I really get my love of music from my dad. Yeah. And he's the one who turned me on to reading Rolling Stone. And he pointed out Ben Fong Torres, who I think we talked about this at the time, he was like the only like melanated representation that I knew of writing like music, like writing about all kinds of music. And he was kind of an early model for me before I actually got into the music industry and found out what it was really like.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:19:27] Yeah. Yeah. That really relates to my dad and how I was raised. I was when you set up your mom was the Jimi Hendrix then that is my dad's idol. And I was raised in a house where there was a giant poster of him, like six foot high poster of him for until I was, you know, till they repainted the door and they took it down to the super dirty at that point in like when I was 20 or whatever. But yeah, that I, I also grew up with my parents talking about Monterey Pop more than Woodstock but yeah, I can relate to that.

Michelle McCrary [00:20:01] Yeah. Full Boomer parents. That's why it's so weird to hear people talk about boomers. It's like, do you really know? Do you really have boomer parents? Because, I have boomer parents. And like it's a whole yeah, they're yeah. At least from what it sounds like, that music was such a huge part of their lives. And yeah, I'm grateful that my dad passed it on to me. Also, the Fleetwood Mac. I have his original Rumors album that I love.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:20:31] Oh, yeah, it's very popular now, you know, they have a resurgence. All the young people love it.

Michelle McCrary [00:20:36] Now, I'm thrilled that children have discovered the White Witch Stevie Nicks. I'm thrilled that the children have discovered Kate Bush and like nineties hip hop. Like I will. Yes, yes. Get into it. Get into it.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:20:56] And so for you, why did you think music writing like instead of as opposed to being a musician yourself or some other role around the music industry, was like your dream.

Michelle McCrary [00:21:06] Um, I just love listening to music and I love those really good in-depth articles about the artists. And Ben Fong Torres is like the one of the best to me when I was growing up of those, like, really rich profiles that really got at not only the person but how that who the artist was kind of influenced their creative output. So that really spoke to me. I did not think that I had any musical talent. I tried to learn how to play guitar. I didn't. And I don't remember sticking with it. I don't know if it was like a money thing or that the guitar teacher went away at school. But I didn't really stick with that, and I didn't start singing until I went to high school and.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:22:02] I didn't even know you sing.

Michelle McCrary [00:22:05] I like to say I can carry a tune. So I, I was in like we called it Glee Club in high school. And then there was like these small groups that you had to audition for. And I was in a group called The Overtones and they sang like, you know, pop music kind of stuff. Popular music. Yeah. So I did that, but I never felt like I wanted to be in a band or be on stage. Like as a musician, I never felt that. But I loved. The idea of talking to musicians or like writing about music that I loved.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:22:45] Yeah, that makes sense.

Michelle McCrary [00:22:47] Yeah.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:22:48] Yeah, I love that. I, I also, I'm trying to piece together the part of your love for Ben Fong Torres and recognizing him as the only person of color in that space and that experience. And maybe how you felt about potentially being in that role and being a black woman and kind of going back to the idea about labor and being a person of color and what that idea was and how that maybe felt or like maybe fear around it or excitement and then like what you ended up doing.

Michelle McCrary [00:23:23] Yeah, I think that. For me, the process of kind of developing political thought around how I exist in the world personally. It's like an ongoing project. I think growing up. There was like an awareness of it. I think every black kid has that awareness. You know, people talk about the talk and.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:23:54] Mhm.

Michelle McCrary [00:23:55] I had that but because of where I grew up, I didn't grow up around any white people. And like I have like only a handful of white teachers. So like I feel like there was like a, like an abstraction to my understanding of blackness as viewed through the lens of whiteness. And it wasn't until high school that I went to an all white boarding school that that kind of stuff really became started to crystallize for me. But the piece about Ben Fong Torres. I was aware that he was different, and I knew on some cellular level, you know, because of the music that I liked and the vast breadth of the music that I liked, it was odd for me to it would be odd for me to enter into that music world. And I had an awareness that everybody else who was writing about music was that like Ben Fong Torres. So.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:25:08] Or you.

Michelle McCrary [00:25:10] Or me! Yeah. And it wasn't till later, like I got into the Black Rock Coalition. I feel like my mom still gets gets the letters from them. I just was like, Oh, my God. Okay, here are my people. So, yeah. So and then their writers, like, Kandia Crazy Horse who is a black woman, music writer and Danielle Smith, you know, like, yeah. So then like the nineties became rich with, you know, different publications like Vibe and Honey, and there are more models. But by that time, I was interning at Polygram slash Island Records, Island Black Music, and I. This is like college and. I just got really disillusioned. I was sexually harrassed.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:26:11] I'm sorry.

Michelle McCrary [00:26:12] Yeah, like, I just. Like I was just like, God, this business is so gross. I was like, This is gross. And yeah. And I think that those experiences. Kind of really started to crystallize the fact that, oh, yeah, this this terrain. Not only is it like very white, and very male, but it's also very male centric, period.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:26:43] Yes.

Michelle McCrary [00:26:44] Incredibly patriarchal.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:26:46] Yes.

Michelle McCrary [00:26:46] If you're, quote, serious about music as a woman. And I feel like inside of fandoms. Anyway. like women are, are like tested and poked in a way that men are like, oh are you really into music or are you a real musician. Just dumb shit like that.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:12] I agree.

Michelle McCrary [00:27:13] Yeah. So I think that that kind of consciousness around what it really meant. I slowly developed just as I grew and kind of like experienced more of the world. And I still feel like I maintain kind of like a little level of naivete around it. Like everything is always a discovery for me. And it doesn't occur to me initially. And then I'm like, Oh, that's what that is. And then it gets really heavy.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:27:46] I mean, that's life. And I think I'm going into things with an open mind, which I appreciate about you.

Michelle McCrary [00:27:53] Yeah, I try to. And I think, you know, when I think about the spaces that I've been in, the work spaces that I've been, I think. I've always tried to approach it with that open mind, but I've been very aware of. How those spaces attempted to limit me and marginalize me undermined me. You know, I wound up kind of staying in that music industry track because I wound up working for at the time it was MTV Networks before they switched over to Viacom. And I kind of stayed in that world in a different capacity doing publicity and communications. And, yeah, you see it. You see? You see what is valued. And I realized that a lot of those things that are valued are like the toxic outputs of our culture.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:28:58] Yeah.

Michelle McCrary [00:28:59] And I was like, wow, I don't like this. And I always felt like I had a really hard time, like. Belonging and persevering in that environment because I felt like I wanted to really change it. And if I couldn't, then I'm out and that's pretty much how I operate. It was like, if I can't influence this in some way to make it better, not only for me but for everybody else. Yeah. I'm not going to let it suck me dry.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:29:34] Yeah. No, I hear that. I hear that. I have so many questions about that specific piece, but I did have like a very specific question going back to your internship and also your idea of being a. Was the idea of being a music writer still in your mind at that point? And is that what kind of changed the path, that internship or that time in your life?

Michelle McCrary [00:29:54] Yeah, I think that I kind of was also toying with the idea of becoming an A&R person. Artist and repertoire, like finding new talent. And. I think there was also a shift away from writing in a way in college for me, I think. Because I had to approach writing in such a different way, writing papers and all that stuff. And I didn't take a lot of creative writing courses. I just feel like I kind of put writing on the backburner also because I had the idea in my head I needed to have a real job and I need to have a real career path. So I was like, Oh, I could be a psychologist because that's a real job. Writing is not a real job. Like it just didn't feel like I felt like I had to make money because I don't come from money. I was like, I need to make sure that I can pay for myself. So that kind of superseded any kind of dreams that I had.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:31:03] Yep.

Michelle McCrary [00:31:03] Which is pretty insidious when you think about it.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:31:07] Oh, it is. And this is like something I've really been thinking about in trying to express the goals of Converge is the idea and like, I'd love to unpack this with you if you're interested. The idea that, especially for people of color, the idea of going into a field that is traditionally insecure, such as anything in the arts, etc., is not like one can't even formulate a desire towards that because of all the societal and family responsibilities and structures that are placed upon them and that being its own restriction, as opposed to the idea of like if you want it so badly, then like you'll do anything. But that puts at the expense everything about your identity from where you come from and like things in your family and things that society tells you. And just like unpacking that is, that's like a goal in itself to help people even dream and go towards that.

Michelle McCrary [00:32:01] Yeah. And I think that the supports too. Not only systemic supports with the communal supports and familial supports. I mean, a lot of people and I think there's also a level of bravery that I think about it now that I definitely didn't have because I was orienting toward the idea of safety that our culture imparts on us. Like to be safe you must earn money and have a steady job.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:32:36] Mm hmm.

Michelle McCrary [00:32:37] To be safe, you have to engage in certain kinds of behavior. Because as a person who is who identifies as a woman in a black body, there are things that you can't do that white people could get away with doing.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:32:55] Mm hmm.

Michelle McCrary [00:32:56] So it's like, you know, all those mixed messages swirled in a way that I restricted myself.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:33:05] Yup.

Michelle McCrary [00:33:06] And there are still ways that I probably actually I know that I continue to do that, but it was it was definitely with me. By the time I got to college, there was like. The way I had been dreaming, you know, growing up in junior high elementary school, even in high school. Got limited. With that reality is like, Oh, I need to make money and be able to pay for myself if I want to get an apartment in Manhattan. At the time the rents were like to like sublet it was like $800 or something was like, I need to get money to do it. How am I going to get money to do that? I have to have a real job. So, yeah, I feel like that got me early. And God bless the people who it doesn't get. And they do get out there and do whatever it takes because those are the artists who I always love and who I'm interested in, and they follow their dream, you know, no matter what. And they just get out there because there's I admire that bravery that it takes to be an artist. In this culture specifically

Amy Yoshitsu [00:34:23] In this culture specifically, yeah. I mean, I feel somebody's feelings about that. But I did want to ask you specifically about when when you made the choice in college, like you said, you didn't do a lot of creative writing classes. Was that was the safety mindedness part of that decision? I don't remember what you studied.

Michelle McCrary [00:34:40] Oh yeah. So shenanigans. College was shenanigans. And so I went in and decided I'm going to be a psychology major.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:34:51] Okay.

Michelle McCrary [00:34:51] So I decided to go and I was taking all these psychology classes and I got we had one abnormal psych class and that was one class. I was like, Oh man, this is awesome. I love Abnormal Psych. Give me more of this. No more. But we do have statistics which I hated. I had so much trouble with. I was like, Why do I have to do this? I hate, why am I doing this period? So I decided to throw all that away. And there was another department called American Culture where you could basically like design your course structure and what you wanted to study. So I started doing that and I was already taking a lot of art history classes because I like doing that and I decided to do all these American culture classes at a lot of it at the time I was studying what they call mass media and popular culture, so that's what I stuck with and that's what I wound up doing my thesis under that department banner.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:36:03] What was your thesis on? If you don't mind me asking? You don't have to say that.

Michelle McCrary [00:36:08] No, no, no. I actually found a draft of my thesis paper when I was at my mom's house last summer. It was it was black nationalism and hip hop.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:36:19] Cool! Iove that

Michelle McCrary [00:36:20] And kind of like. Yeah, it was a mess. But yeah, I did my best.

Amy Yoshitsu [00:36:27] Everyone can only do their best, especially at that time. It's hard.

Michelle McCrary [00:36:30] Yeah. Yeah. So that was my thesis paper, and there was, like, weird shit that happened. Because at that time, especially at that college, nobody was writing about hip hop. I think, Tricia Rose's book, Black Noise was like the only thing out there that was academic about hip hop. And they were trying to get me to write about sports in the black body. And I was like, the fuck do I know about sports? Oh, are you fucking kidding me? Excuse my language. Um. I was like, No, this is the thesis that I want to do. Like, yeah, let me dust off this and give you people something with this paper, it was so. Yeah, it was wild. It was wild, you know? And reflecting on that, I was like, wow, look at them trying to limit my study about my own culture and telling me what's important. And I mean, God bless black women, especially in academia, because I couldn't. I would never I, I, I see why people just, like, go into that area and like burn out and have these horrible experiences because again, like all these structures, they're just oriented toward just the most destructive, just lowest common denominator of kind of dominator culture. So, yeah, it's wild.

Pat McMahon [00:38:04] That concludes part one of a conversation with Amy Yoshitsu and Michelle McCrary. Part two is available to listen and can be found wherever you are right now listening to Part one. Bring Your Full Self is put together through the collective effort of the members of Converge Collaborative. Special thanks today to Amy and Michelle and to you for listening. If you're interested in learning more about our group, our work, or would just like to say hi, you can reach us by emailing Converge at Converge Collaborative or on Instagram at Converge Collaborative.