TRANSCRIPT FOR BONUS Ep 3

News clip: Rep Justin Pierce, who the district 86 for disorderly behavior pursuant to Article two, section 12, the Constitution of the State of Tennessee. Mr. Speaker, I move the immediate introduction of house Resolution 63 that be heard under unfinished business on Thursday. You've heard the motion from me, seconded.

Objection. We're on the board. All those in favor? Vote. Aye. All those opposed Vote no.

Michelle: That sound was the moment when the Republican head of the Tennessee legislature, Cameron Sexton, moved to expel three Democratic members for representing their constituents who were demanding gun control laws. In the wake of another school shooting, you can hear the protestors cries of fascist fascists in the background.

In these past few weeks, actions like Sexton have gone on in Montana,where Montana State representative Zoe Zephyr, a trans woman, was barred from the man Montana house floor in an attempt to silence her and her dissent against the repressive trans laws being enacted in Montana. S is suing for that action.

With the help of the A C L U, all of these incidents. In Tennessee, Montana, and across the country may have people wondering, is this 2023 or 1865? Terry and I talk about how the Confederacy never really died and how what's going on in state houses across the country mirrors some things that happened.

During reconstruction, especially in McIntosh County.

That's the other thing. I'm such a history nerd, but I think that's the other thing you get from history is you get instructions, um, from your ancestors. You get instructions about how to move in these times. Yes. And um, I think this is a good point for us to start talking about. Woo. Tennessee. Tennessee.

Yeah. Tennessee. So we started our conversation in season one, just talking about a little bit about these parallels between, you know, this reconstruction period and like the backlash of that period. Um, the backlash to the freedom of. You know, the newly freed, enslaved folks who were really just trying to mine their business and rebuild their lives.

Um, I, I just kept thinking about that and I kept thinking about all the stuff that you had told me about the legislature in Georgia, and specifically the kind of, um, political power base that was being built in McIntosh County. Um, and the efforts to sabotage that. Yes. So, I know you've done a lot of research, um, but I'm just framing it up for you in that way and just so folks who may not know, um, you know, what happened in Tennessee, if you haven't heard, uh, A few weeks ago, uh, the head of the Tennessee legislature, a Republican named Cameron Sexton, moved to expel three Democratic member members, uh, for representing their constituents who were demanding gun control laws that would actually do something to protect kids, uh, from being slaughtered by these machines, these weapons that are really only used for war.

Um, and it happened again in recently in Montana. There was a Montana State representative, Zoe Zephyr, who was a trans woman. She was barred from the Montana house in an attempt to silence her and her dissent over what's happening with all this legislation against, uh, trans people. So, I was looking at all that stuff from my framework.

I was like, oh, here they go again. Disenfranchising people who they feel should never have been franchised in the first place. Well, so yeah, I wanna start with you kind of giving us those pieces of. The sabotage that happened in McIntosh County and kind of how it grew out, um, during reconstruction.

Terri: Well, again, you have Nationwide four, just under 4 million enslaved people were freed.

And you have a planter elite. That basically starts to lose their minds. They are now encountered with their former bondsman, uh, forced to. Uh, you know, for one, they're on the, you have a level playing ground. I said, everybody is broke. Everybody is desperate for work, everybody, or income. Because again, the, the planters for the most part weren't working.

They were delegating and, and building these, their wealth off of the backs of these, um, enslaved people. So essentially, uh, we have is, uh, Is a conflict in terms of who's going to labor for whom. And this is the, the problem that has basically been passed down generation from generation. We're still seeing these parallels today, and, and it's really rooted at the, uh, at some of the legislation that's going on.

Uh, that we're experiencing in seeing. And when you look at what happened in Tennessee just weeks ago and then, you know, following up in Montana, this is the beginning of a trend, but it's a trend that is based on a playbook that worked. It worked very well, uh, during reconstruction, especially, uh, in the state of Georgia.

We are aware that with the first, uh, constitutional convention right after the war, The state of Georgia sent about 24 African-American men to the Georgia State legislation, and it's a huge surprise. Uh, and it shouldn't have been because at this point you have the, the planters are disenfranchised.

They've been disenfranchised because, uh, they're viewed by the, the union as traitors as they should have been. Yes. Traitors, yes. They had to take, uh, an oath, uh, you know, pledging allegiance back to the United States to regain their citizenship. Um, and, and, and many had this sense of feeling like that. Not only have they humiliated for, for losing the war and now having to deal with, uh, you know, African Americans as their equals, which they in their court just could not wrap their heads around.

I mean, it was driving them crazy. And when you look at, say, the historic newspapers at that time, there is not one page of any major newspaper that does not talk about the negro, the problems and, and everything which. It's, it's so counter to everything they said about the Negro before they were like, you know, they're docile, they're, they're so good.

You know, they do their work without complaint, right? We've left our women here. They, you know, they, they didn't violate our women but didn't overnight. The negro, the black man in particular is demonized. So, um, what I look at in terms of what happened, Now in the parallels again, I see the running of the same playbook.

Um, With the 24th that were sent to the Georgia, uh, state legislature, and actually I think about now, I've seen numbers where they've gone back and forth because there were a couple men that were mulattos that went back and forth in terms of ethnicity. Um, that number could be as high as they 27, but needless to say, they expelled them from office and they took, uh, advantage of a loophole where the African-American was granted, uh, citizen well citizenship.

Um, and, um, the right to vote, but it did not say they had the right, it didn't spell out the terms, basically what this citizenship looked like. And that's what they used. They, they had a whole other set of rules for you. You were not, um, basically to run for office. And that's how they managed to ex expel them.

And, um, you know, they fought hard, uh, to, to get that, that, uh, these rights. Uh, granted once again. And, um, I, I look at the parallel and when I first saw it, you know, unfolding before my eyes, I'm like, oh my gosh, here we go again. And then I, I'm thinking, you know, you have a Faulkner who, who quotes, you know, the past is never dead.

The past is, uh, it's not even the past. Right. And that's loosely translated cause I'm trying to remember the exact words, but the past is never dead. And here we are. You know, in 2023 reliving the exact playbook that was used, uh, you know, to disenfranchise these, uh, first early black legislatures in state of Georgia.

Michelle: Yeah. And I just, it's wild to me that structurally the Confederacy is so very much. With us, um, structurally in the way that they're attempting to govern. It's, it's giving confederacy, it's giving, um, you know, all these courts that people in. The United States like to talk about in other countries have always existed here.

The so-called kangaroo courts, the so-called, um, you know, banana republics like that has always existed here. So when I was watching that unfolds, I was like, oh, this is just how they got down after. The Civil War, this is how they sabotaged reconstruction. This whole march has just been a sabotage trying to. Really just grasp power because they really believe that they are like by, right, by like divine right. Supposed to be ruling everybody. And out here with mistresses representing districts, they don't even live in.

Terri: And, and that was done. And Gerry Gerrymandering, you know, changing the, the, uh, districts basically, uh, you know, uh, redoing the maps basically to again, uh, say whiten up areas that would basically, or, or should just by the sheer number produce, you know, African American, uh, legislators.

So all of this is not new. Now, and if you, you look at this, I mean, it goes so far as even the year 1877 and in particular, this is where the study of what happened in Macintosh should be a lesson. Uh, that's taught nationwide because, uh, with 1877, it's kind of the, uh, the, the formal date at the end of, of reconstruction.

And it's, uh, 1877 is so pivotal because just the year prior, we have an election between Samuel Tilden and Rutherford b Hayes. Tilden is the. Democrat and Hayes is the Republican and the Republicans basically just by virtue of being the party of liberation associated with liberating, uh, the, the enslaved people, uh, and legislating at that time, um, are the co are the party that basically African Americans get behind.

Right. Um, and, um, you have basic, and, and I need to clarify this now because we still go back and I see now, even currently, you have a. Uh, Republicans who are essentially conservatives now claiming a stake in the freedom of African Americans when, uh, The party of today is not the party of yester year. The yes Republicans of, uh, this time period are the progressives.

They are pushing forward a progressive and liberal agenda. They're the ones that are getting behind, you know, uh, You know, education, uh, for African Americans and, and, and slowly incorporating into the American fabric. And I say slowly, because again, they have their own biases too, right? And, and here at the, the core that's, that's the problem, is that you cannot legislate bigotry and prejudice and bias.

And, um, that was always at the core of most of these decisions. And, um, unfortunately, again with, uh, 1877 being so pivotal, What happened in Macintosh County is we see, uh, basically Tunis Campbell, the community organizer that helped organize one of the strongest voting blocks ever seen in the South. Not, you know, pretty much nothing like it, uh, you know, to this very day.

But, um, he sent to jail. Um, they, they finally managed to get him out. You know, he, he outsmarted him in, in so many ways, and they've been after him for years, but they send Campbell to jail. You see, um, you know, nationwide, the violence escalates and the legislation becomes even more and more, um, restrictive and basically is designed to re reaffirm the values.

Uh, prior to, uh, emancipation, right? Every, every bit was designed or focused on getting African Americans back in the fields working for white people versus them. Working as, uh, Garrison Frazier wanted, uh, or had en envisioned that they would be given this land work for themselves, uh, uh, become solid citizens in exercising, know the, the right to vote.

Um, so everything is regressive and we're seeing that now. We, we we're seeing that now there's, there's, uh, both in both time periods. It's a real rewrite of history we see. Again, half of say, Confederate, uh, soldiers, uh, you know, didn't make it back home. And we see those that have returned home totally, you know, broken down.

We have their families now, uh, trying to reframe. What has happened for their children. And that's the interesting thing cuz we're, we're hearing this in, in, in schools now about, you know, the concerns of the children and what they're learning. You know, they have to now be protected from the truth. Uh, which at that time the truth was, uh, know your father, uh, was a traitor.

He, he actually rose up against, you know, the US government and then he could potentially face treason charges. That was the, the reality. But, The effort was made to rewrite the history. We throw up a couple of confederate, uh, you know, uh, statues and, and, uh, you know, cling to this idea that we were just, uh, standing up for state's rights and reframe the, the narrative.

And we are still seeing the same playbook. Today. You're going to reframe slavery. We're not gonna talk about it. Uh, the state of Texas at one point was even trying to, you know, change, uh, the, uh, The terminology used, you know, to describe the trait. You know, they, they actually, uh, I can't remember the specific term, but the term was,

Michelle: I think they said workers. They were saying workers.

Terri: Yes, yes. That's the point. You know, everything to diminish that. And, and the sad thing is to openly say that it's not about, uh, even to protect African children, which I could, I remember as a child of the, uh, sixties and seventies in school. Nobody cared how I felt when I was right.

You know, hit with these pictures of, of these, these people totally, totally degraded, you know, in the fields and told that they really did nothing to. Further, you know, African American history, basically, their story's not worth telling, you know, they were just, you know, captive. They were backwards and idle and, and, and the whole nine yards that we, we've been given the whole spiel.

Michelle: Yeah. And to the point where you get a Supreme Court justice who is from pinpoint, Georgia Yeah. Has absorbed those lies so fully. That he is an absolute agent of this system of like confederate, audacity. That's what I'm calling it.

Terri: Yeah.

Confederate, audacity.

Michelle: Every generation, generation in every community and even in in families has, you know, there's gen. You know, someone will emerge that will take. Another perspective. And, and, and I, and I really hate to put it this, this way, but it all comes down to what, you know, motivates him and, and the payoff. Um, you know, I, I hate to say, well, and, and, and it's coming out now. He's been paid off very well.

Yes. Handsomely.

Terri: Yeah. Yeah,

Michelle: yeah. And that is, that is wild to me. And the point of, uh, Uh, breaking up the voting block. That's what I wanted to come back to. Yes. When you talked about Georgia and this voting block just in McIntosh County that Tunis Campbell had [:20:] solidified, um, Georgia is still so vital. To all things, to the point where, uh, the former, twice impeached now, uh, charged with, I don't know what, whatever kind of crime that he's done was calling up.

You know, the, the elector. The head of the Board of Elections in Georgia talking about find me votes.

Terri: Yes.

Michelle: That's how crucial Georgia is. And you see Florida, Florida's another spot. A lot of these places you could basically probably like overlay a map of a con of the Confederacy Confederacy on these places now that are acting out.

Um, but yeah, so.

Terri: Yes, it's, um,

Michelle: I just wanted to bring that parallel and have that conversation with you. Um, you know, I always appreciate talking to you about these things, and I think folks will notice that we're not going into like a whole lot of detail because w I would love for folks who are listening to this.

Go into your own detail. You don't have to necessarily go read a history book. You don't necessarily have to go read anything. You could just start talking to your family members.

Terri: Yes.

Michelle: And then that will lead you to, you know, your vocal municipality where they keep, you know, the records about. Property land pension records, like Terry is saying, all of this is in everybody's family.

So if they try to take it out of the history books and they try to take it out of the schools, the information will always be there. And if, and I would like to have people really think about making sure they hold onto that information if they're so inclined. Um, But yeah. Is there anything that you wanna say about this in closing?

Terri: We, we are, we are living in some of the craziest, chaotic and even violent times, uh, that are parallel, uh, in a real scary way. Everything that happened, uh, right during, you know, this, this period up until the turn of the century when they actually succeeded announcing, um, the black legislatures and, and, and.

Proudly, Macintosh was one of the last. To, uh, succumb. We, we are the last, uh, county to have held, to have elected, uh, a black man. And, um, and what is not talked about often, even though there was a degree of success in, in pushing black people out of office, the white community in the white, uh, legislators that would follow, still had to work with.

The black community to get elected. They were aware of their political clout and power, and even though they could not take the high profile positions that they, they should have earned, um, they still exercise this quiet strength and power behind the scenes. So I, I do, uh, like you want to encourage people.

To dig into the records because they are there, they're in the newspapers, so you can't get rid of the newspapers, these, these distort newspapers. It, it's there, it's out there. So whereas you can have people try to remove books, ban and burn them, uh, whatever. There are so many workarounds and now, you know, you have this whole vast playground of the internet.

I say use it, dig into your family stories, share them, put 'em out there. Um, you are their voice. And, um, I, I think that is the spiritual directive that we as descendants of this, this, this area. Um, we've inherited that. That's our legacy.

Michelle: Yeah. Well, Terry, thank you so much again. Um, I just always come out of these conversations just with so much to think about and so much to hold onto. So thank you. And that's it.

Terri: Thank you for having me.

Michelle: There it is the final episode of our bonus series. I hope you enjoyed it, and um, just a couple of updates in the time since we recorded that episode. Both Justin Pearson and Justin Jones were reelected to their seats, um, despite the very best efforts of, uh, the Tennessee legislature to silence them and remove them.

So that is a really great bit of good news. Um, we also talk a little bit about. Zoe Zephyr, a lawmaker from the Montana State House, and unfortunately, Zoe Zephyr was not allowed, um, back onto the house floor. But in the time since we recorded, uh, that episode, Zoe, Proposed to her fiance, which is beautiful and congratulations.

And, um, she has also been going around the country speaking up for trans rights and I believe she was on the view of few weeks ago and I think she was just in Florida, um, getting into good trouble and fighting the good fight. So, um, Shout out to Zoe during this pride month and our trans siblings everywhere.

Um, continuing to fight the good fight. Thanks to everyone for listening to the podcast. Don't forget to follow Curious Roots on Instagram at Curious Roots Pod and check out our website for more information and learnings about coastal Georgia curious roots pod.com. Until next time. Thanks for listening again.

Converge Collaborative has its own podcast series called Bring Your Full Self. The podcast is a series of conversations that center the humanity and emotions of people of color in the context of their labor, how they generate their work and survive inside systems of capitalism. The podcast serves the dual purpose of making transparent the process of creating converge, collaborative, and allowing us to connect with a wider community of laborers, professionals, and artists of color.

Converge was founded with the belief that work our connections to ourselves, our communities, and our families cannot be compartmentalized no matter how much our current cultural and societal systems tell us. They must. We invite ourselves and others to cultivate spaces that allow us to safely step away from the myth of professionalism and extractive labor practices to embrace the reality that the intersections of our experiences, learnings, and challenges make us the multitudes that we all are.

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Big thank you to our producer, Pat McMahon. My deepest gratitude to Mr. Wilson Moran and to the community of Harris Neck. Big thank yous to Terry Ward and Adolphus Armstrong of AMA Genealogy. And thank you to my relatives who are now with the ancestors, especially Ms. Mary Moran and my grandmother Margaret Baisden White.

Thank you all for listening to Curious Roots.